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waxburn
Old Love
USA
735 Posts |
 Posted - 25/11/2010 : 22:00:12
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quote:
Originally posted by gatemouthmoore
Again may I correct you, neither Arthur or Conka played drums on any of the "released" LOVE records!
That is "Snoopy" playing drums on the first album.... on every track. Also on Seven and Seven is. This is posted with the understanding that I DO NOT THINK MUCH OF SNOOPY, as a drummer, or a person....!!!!
Don Conka was in C.R.C. when Love signed with Elektra, and he remained there through [all] of the first three albums, thus he never played on any "released" record. If you find a Love track from the sixties, with Conka playing drums, you can make yourself some serious cash.
When they hired Michael, Love had their pick of the best drummers in the business.
They chose Mike.... Arthur, Johnny, Kenny, and Bryan, all felt that he was the best by a very wide margin. Listen to a House is not a Motel, and hear the genius that is Michael Stuart-Ware.
By the way, if you can't hear those magnificent drums, [that] may be where the problem lies.....You need a better sound system!
The more misinformation I read, the more I'm convinced that some of us are posting with tongue planted firmly in cheek! 
What i said was that Conka was in LOVE, i dont recall saying anything about any 'release'. I know its hard to believe but there was a
LOVE without MSW. Conka was on the recording contract. Many, probably many of them deaf, preferred his drumming to MSW. Im not one of them, all of them were ok to me, Arthur, Snoop and MSW. Dont think any deserve any drum medals.
I believe that SNOOPY himself has stated that Arthur played drums on some cuts, i think Botnick and others as well.
House is not a Motel is a terrific AL composition, and i like the FC cut also the versions with all other drummers, and the Baby Lemonade take. i dont think the drums, with all due respect to MSW genius, is that big of a deal on it. Besides i dont buy records to analyze the drums. The vibe is more important to me.
As far as Conka being in "CRC" when LOVE singed to Elecktra and remaining there for the duration... i thought the same thing, until i read in PC that touching story where Conka met MSW in the supermarket, right when he was picked by AL to join Love.
and tells MSW "Michael, im glad it was you .....".
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Edited by - waxburn on 25/11/2010 22:17:07 |
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gatemouthmoore
Fourth Love
202 Posts |
Posted - 25/11/2010 : 22:51:32
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I GIVE-UP...!!!!! BELIEVE WHAT EVER NONSENSE YOU CHOOSE. The facts are, I was there, you were not.....!!!!!     |
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waxburn
Old Love
USA
735 Posts |
Posted - 25/11/2010 : 22:54:33
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quote:
Originally posted by gatemouthmoore
I GIVE-UP...!!!!! BELIEVE WHAT EVER NONSENSE YOU CHOOSE. The facts are, I was there, you were not.....!!!!!
Hey, im just quoting PC. and Snoop etc. Its them you have a quarrel with. All of you were there and saw and heard different things i guess. |
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Joe Morris
Old Love
3491 Posts |
Posted - 26/11/2010 : 01:44:18
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MSW felt the drums too low in the mix as I recall. Again, its nitpicking. Forever Changes is one of the best albums ever recorded, can't really mix it for the sound of the drums (or lack thereof) on the album
at least they went out on top. Michael's claim to fame is playing drums on Forever Changes, which is enough
Didn't really play too much though - it seems he stopped recording after Love, unless he did some recorded rehearsals with Neil Diamond!
Conka might have played with the Grass Roots or with the LAGS, the recorded evidence of which is indeed scant (You I'll Be Following, Stay Away). I forget which band cut the forgettable song about the car (Its the Marlin) but maybe thats Conka on drums? Snoopy just happened to be filling in for DC when they were cutting the album, and it doesn't seem he felt a part of the band. Apparently they were more fans of Conka, who seems to have had his own following in the group (the Grass Roots) |
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lemonade kid
Old Love
USA
9873 Posts |
Posted - 26/11/2010 : 17:25:51
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I can understand "nitpicking"....michael was classically trained and like everyone in the band wanted his part to be right. Wouldn't you? Arthur thought certain parts were not as good as they might be, volume issues, but with 8-track technology, it was impossible to tweak.
Arthur admitted later that the drum parts and the intro for the opening track ought to have been louder, but there just were no more tracks to work with as drum and bass were on the same track--piggybacked as it were. It is not unusual for an artist to be unable to view or hear their works...Many times they see what could have been better and many times the artists and the guys in the sound booth did not see eye-to-eye when it was mixed and edited. It happens..not everyone voices it...unwilling to criticize their cash potential.
But I think we lose track that Michael and the other members of Love all express extreme pride in their work on Forever Changes and feel great honor in having been a part of that historic and impressive musical feat.
...and that is the last word in the book and by all members....pride and honor.....
not anger and regret.
____________________________________________________________
We need Hippies, now, more than ever...
-LK |
Edited by - lemonade kid on 26/11/2010 17:34:17 |
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Joe Morris
Old Love
3491 Posts |
Posted - 26/11/2010 : 18:31:57
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| I was always amused Bryan never listened to Forever Changes! |
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waxburn
Old Love
USA
735 Posts |
Posted - 26/11/2010 : 19:12:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Joe Morris
I was always amused Bryan never listened to Forever Changes!
They like but they dont like. Arthur made the decisions, its Arthur Lee's baby. |
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gatemouthmoore
Fourth Love
202 Posts |
Posted - 26/11/2010 : 19:16:07
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Hey LK, In reality they had an even tougher time, getting a balanced mix. Sunset Sound in 1967, only had a three track machine. After laying down the basic tracks with Botnick, the guys went over to Western Recording Studios, with a new Engineer. There they transferred the half inch three tracks, to a one inch eight track, in order to do the over-dubs. The azimuth was different, and some of the signal was lost forever. Botnick had done, (as was the practice at the time) a running mix, so they were stuck with his levels.
The whole project seemed to be snake-bit from the beginning. Holtzman crying poverty and changing the double album concept. Bryan throwing a "hissy fit" and attempting to sabotage Arthur's songs, in favor of his own, thus precipitating a "mini mutiny." Johnny was in a constant battle with Botnick, whom he despised. Kenny was in "Never-Never land" and Poor Michael was stuck in the middle, playing mediator. The saving grace was John Haney at Western, who finally was able to end the chaos, and allow the music to come forth.... He is the un-sung hero!!
With all the problems... it is a true miracle Forever Changes ever saw the light of day.
GMM |
Edited by - gatemouthmoore on 26/11/2010 19:20:59 |
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waxburn
Old Love
USA
735 Posts |
Posted - 26/11/2010 : 20:13:29
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quote:
Originally posted by gatemouthmoore
Hey LK, In reality they had an even tougher time, getting a balanced mix. Sunset Sound in 1967, only had a three track machine. After laying down the basic tracks with Botnick, the guys went over to Western Recording Studios, with a new Engineer. There they transferred the half inch three tracks, to a one inch eight track, in order to do the over-dubs. The azimuth was different, and some of the signal was lost forever. Botnick had done, (as was the practice at the time) a running mix, so they were stuck with his levels.
The whole project seemed to be snake-bit from the beginning. Holtzman crying poverty and changing the double album concept. Bryan throwing a "hissy fit" and attempting to sabotage Arthur's songs, in favor of his own, thus precipitating a "mini mutiny." Johnny was in a constant battle with Botnick, whom he despised. Kenny was in "Never-Never land" and Poor Michael was stuck in the middle, playing mediator. The saving grace was John Haney at Western, who finally was able to end the chaos, and allow the music to come forth.... He is the un-sung hero!!
With all the problems... it is a true miracle Forever Changes ever saw the light of day.
GMM
Holzman is on record stating there was no double album. Where are the other songs that were intended for the so called double album?
Maybe the Gethsemane songs? In Buffalos book Arthur said that there was no such thing.
O yes, and lets not forget that ALONE AGAIN had to be molded into shape. They had to call in the Wrecking Crew because they couldnt even get in tune but now they are molding and having mini mutinies..... if that was so the wrecking crew would have been called back in about 5 min.
Record companies dont put out double albums from bands whose last release peaked at 80. Besides it probably would have cost a fortune
like 3200 dollars.
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lemonade kid
Old Love
USA
9873 Posts |
Posted - 26/11/2010 : 20:17:36
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Right, Wax....there was talk that the Wrecking Crew was brought in more to kick the Love band in the rear end and wake them up so they would play the way they knew how. With the Wrecking Crew as the backing band, the musical aura would never have sounded like LoVE!!! And they could hear that right away in the sound booth....even Arthur, when he brought Kenny back in for those complex bass lines that the Wrecking Crew bassist couldn't handle.....Arthur as usual, was playing with their minds, psyching them out!
____________________________________________________________
We need Hippies, now, more than ever...
-LK |
Edited by - lemonade kid on 26/11/2010 20:35:14 |
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waxburn
Old Love
USA
735 Posts |
Posted - 26/11/2010 : 20:29:21
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quote:
Originally posted by lemonade kid
Right, Wax....there was talk that the Wrecking Crew was brought in more to kick teh Love band in teh rear end and wake them up so they would play teh way they knew how. With the Wrecking Crew as the backing band, the musical aura would never have sounded like LoVE!!! And they could hear that right away in the sound booth....even Arthur, when he brought Kenny back in for those complex bass lines that the Wrecking Crew bassist couldn't handle.
____________________________________________________________
We need Hippies, now, more than ever...
-LK
There was also talk that they were brought in because there were problems and maybe they would have to use studio cats.
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lemonade kid
Old Love
USA
9873 Posts |
Posted - 26/11/2010 : 20:36:06
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quote:
Originally posted by lemonade kid
Right, Wax....there was talk that the Wrecking Crew was brought in more to kick the Love band in the rear end and wake them up so they would play the way they knew how. With the Wrecking Crew as the backing band, the musical aura would never have sounded like LoVE!!! And they could hear that right away in the sound booth....even Arthur, when he brought Kenny back in for those complex bass lines that the Wrecking Crew bassist couldn't handle.....
Right again Wax...
Arthur as usual, was playing with their minds, psyching them out!
____________________________________________________________
We need Hippies, now, more than ever...
-LK |
Edited by - lemonade kid on 26/11/2010 20:36:43 |
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LeeRob
Fifth Love
397 Posts |
Posted - 26/11/2010 : 20:44:50
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I've just taken the time to read this entire thread, there is some great insight and authority posted in your words; because everyone is anonymous it is difficult for me to tell opinion from direct or second-hand knowledge. Either way, it is a very passionate and somewhat well rounded discussion - about a book; Michael's book. I enjoy the rap, you are interesting people. Joe is so dry, ha; waxburn so arrogantly passionate (of course wb will disagree); I guess the same could be said for gatemouth shows the same traits as wb. I use all of these adjectives with the utmost love and affection. "lemonade kid," full of kindness and fairness gets a little ripped in defense of Michael Stuart (remember when he was just Michael Stuart?); a good rock solid base comes forth from lk to keep this post alive. But, I'm saying all of this (I can't wait to be ignored :) ) because I wonder if you have passed notice on the fact that another LOVE book is being written in your posts. And I wonder how you would edit it; I guess you would have to go to the source; the remaining members of the band to get some stories straight. I like YOUR book.
It's all the same day. |
Edited by - LeeRob on 27/11/2010 01:45:46 |
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lemonade kid
Old Love
USA
9873 Posts |
Posted - 26/11/2010 : 22:17:40
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quote:
Originally posted by LeeRob
I've just taken the time to read this entire thread, there is some great insight and authority posted in your words; because everyone is anonymous it is difficult for me to tell opinion from direct or second-hand knowledge. Either way, it is a very passionate and somewhat well rounded discussion - about a book; Michael's book. I enjoy the rap, you are interesting people. Joe is so dry, ha; waxburn so arrogantly passionate (of course wb will disagree); I guess the same could be said for gatemouth shows the same traits as wb. I use all of these adjectives with the utmost love and affection. "lemonade kid," full of kindness and fairness gets a little ripped in defense of Michael Ware (remember when he was just Michael Ware?); a good rock solid base comes forth from lk to keep this post alive. But, I'm saying all of this (I can't wait to be ignored :) ) because I wonder if you have passed notice on the fact that another LOVE book is being written in your posts. And I wonder how you would edit it; I guess you would have to go to the source; the remaining members of the band to get some stories straight. I like YOUR book.
It's all the same day.
Thanks for the kind words... for us all, LeeRob.
So, what would we call this subject if and when it is published IN BOOK FORM?!
THE BOOK OF TORBEN:
THE SACRED TEXT OF THE LATER DAY DISCIPLES OF LOVE
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We need Hippies, now, more than ever...
-LK |
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gatemouthmoore
Fourth Love
202 Posts |
Posted - 26/11/2010 : 22:17:56
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Jac Holtzman is on record saying a lot of things, mostly hyperbole, or just plain made up, self serving nonsense. Both Arthur and Johnny have stated to many people including myself, that most of Jac's assertions are pure bull****. A Quote from Johnny Echols.... "Jac Holtzman is one of the most duplcitous, dishonest, and manipulative individuals, I have ever had the misfortune, to deal with, If the man said water was wet, I'd want a second opinion."
Jac Holtzman was in the studio for most of the first album, plus Seven and Seven is.... Period. He never was in the studio with Love again.
Bruce Botnick engineered the first Album, and the backing tracks on Forever Changes.
John Haney at Western, did the strings, and the horns, and much of the vocal, and lead guitar over-dubs. Besides having an eight track recorder, which Sunset Sound did not have, Western was large enough for the mini orchestra, again Sunset Sound was not.
Both Jac and Bruce speak about Dacapo, as though they knew what they was talking about, though neither of them were there for any cuts. It was recorded with Dave Hassinger at RCA. Revelation was the exception, which Bruce and Mark A. mostly screwed up, at Sunset Sound. Leaving Paul Rothschild, to finish the hatchet job in New York.
By the way.... Bryan's "hissy-fit" and attempted sabotage, is what caused the wrecking crew to be used in the first place. You will find that mentioned in John's book.
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