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caryne
Old Love
United Kingdom
1520 Posts |
 Posted - 12/10/2009 : 00:26:40
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quote:
Originally posted by ThomasGalasso
Prog and jazz-rock are in many cases the same thing from what I have learned.
No, I don't think so, very different genres. |
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ThomasGalasso
Old Love
USA
712 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2009 : 01:04:53
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I disagree.
There are too many bands that blend both, and Love did that on Four Sail and Out Here. A prime example would be Soft Machine. But either way, it doesn't matter.
My whole point is that Arthur moved in a different direction, and the music doesn't stand out like the previous three Love albums, but thats not a crime. Four Sail, and Out Here IS Gethsemane is my theory.
Sure it would have sounded more organic, and probably would have had a vibe an intoxicating vibe much like Forever Changes, and Da Capo if we would have at least had Johnny Echols and Ken Forssi and Michael Stuart play on it. I felt like Bryan was just over it at that point. Bryan's departure surely hurt Arthur's feelings, and subsequently it made him even more bitter, and even more depressed than he would probably ever admit.
I feel like there is a dark tone to Out Here and Four Sail that is not on FC or the other records. Its more like the vibes that were going on during the recording process. I believe in that. |
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gatemouthmoore
Fourth Love
202 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2009 : 01:55:29
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When Love were the Grassroots, they were one of the first "jam" bands
with forty five minute versions of "John Lee Hooker" now called
Revelation, and equally long Smoke Stack Lighnting.
That was the time when they were most popular in LA. Conka would
play twenty minute drum solos, and Echols would do the same.
Add to that Arthur's riviting harmonica work, and there was simply
no one in their class.
So Arthur remembering that, was trying to retread familiar ground in
in an attempt to recreate the magic and perhaps stop the bleeding!
The people were brutal to those guys, they would chant where's Bryan
where's Johnny, Where's Kenny, they were called ham fisted imposters
"brutal."
Arthur tried for years, to get the "Real" Love back together, but
fate stepped in the way with one cruel blow after another.
My take is the "Universe" had shown them "Perfection" and they
chose to bite into the apple, and were cast out of paradise and into
the world of the mundane.  |
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ThomasGalasso
Old Love
USA
712 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2009 : 03:02:35
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Beautifully stated Gatemouth,
I can totally see where they did bite into that apple, and in many ways they ALL betrayed their talents and abilities. David Fricke from Rolling Stone wrote a great piece on how the "new" Love were berated by media and fans alike, but in reality they played great live shows, and I am sure this coupled with the gigantic success of bands like The Doors, and artists such as Jimi Hendrix really got into Lee's psyche.
Why would it not? I mean he was a 24 year old man by that point, and he made some serious mistakes with his career. He burned some bridges, and made some bad financial choices, and of course I am sure he was sidetracked by his own fear and self loathing.
When your guys are in the twilight zone such as Bryan, Johnny, and Kenny were I am sure its hard to deal with. Arthur probably did abandon them at some point, but alas he was still a human being and I am sure if he had it to do differently he would at least consider it.
Bryan and Arthur were maybe too friendly with one another at one point, and then that quickly turned to ashes. The feeling of betrayal he may have had because of Bryan's friendship with Jim Morrison etc.
Arthur paid the price, and in some cases did not learn with his various repeat chances. I feel like he should have really focused his mind on his spiritual health and took to writing and recording with a more zen like attitude.
The man was a genius in the sense of modern pop music. |
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bob f.
Old Love
USA
1308 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2009 : 07:31:11
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it's ironic and sad, that the first 3 lp band lineup was not fully nurtured and realized by Arthur. Then, in his last few years, he embraced and based most of the concerts on the original band's golden years with mucho touring all over, a live concert dvd, and a documentary!
All of that touring would have been even better to have been done in the '60s, going to the Montery Pop Festival, Woodstock (had they stayed together), and using some cool management, and having more publicity. I still don't unnderstand the total lack of public recognition of "Arthur WHO!?" and "LOVE WHAT!?"
something was squandered somehow, the golden ring missed. Not in artistry, of course, but in the music world's ability or willingness to grasp the gift of a unique, magical band playing pop-rockadelic folk-roots music of fierce beauty wrapped in creative melody and poetic lyrics. After "Forever Changes", and especially after "Four Sale", I just was not enjoying the songs and Arthur's Hendrix/jamming
thing. It was always about the melody and lyrics for me. Arthur Lee was Arthur Lee, and he didn't need to be anyone else, and I guess he realized the true magic is in the 1960s songs so well crafted , when he re-emerged in the early 2000s to regain and share the gift with us
....like there was no tomarrow!
...what the world needs now... |
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rocker
Old Love
USA
3606 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2009 : 15:07:41
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| I don't know. Maybe we're too hard on them? Perhaps we should give Love/Arthur a break say on the creativity end? All bands and artists can have a fallow period, no? To expect Arthur to make great records continually could be asking too much. The Beatles arguably produced some junk you know. |
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caryne
Old Love
United Kingdom
1520 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2009 : 16:44:39
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quote:
Originally posted by rocker
I don't know. Maybe we're too hard on them? Perhaps we should give Love/Arthur a break say on the creativity end? All bands and artists can have a fallow period, no? To expect Arthur to make great records continually could be asking too much. The Beatles arguably produced some junk you know.
True (especially your last point ) but I guess the problem was with Arthur that the 'fallow period' never really ended, which was a great pity. Maybe people only do have one true period of genuis in their life? |
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rocker
Old Love
USA
3606 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2009 : 19:05:12
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You know I'd be interested to know if Arthur thought of himself as a success. I think that that in the scheme of things is what counts. I sure hope he did think of himself as contributing to that time in life that he lived in. Now I think that was his whole mantra if you ask me. Ok hang around here but make sure you ain't taking up space and time!... |
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ThomasGalasso
Old Love
USA
712 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2009 : 20:15:49
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Truth is Arthur Lee was an amazing artist, and a man who helped change music. He influenced so many people with those first three records, and even the next two to some extent. He was extremely respected by more successful peers even during his fallow period.
The guy was amazing, and his music stands the test of time. His Four Sail, and Out Here records are even getting better with age. Not to mention there is a whole new generation of people who dig Vindicator and I am sure will dig Black Beauty when and if it should ever get a proper release.
We all know of his abilities, and yes in some ways Arthur did betray those talents, but alas the music and the story brings all of us together.
He had a lot to be proud of. |
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lemonade kid
Old Love
USA
9873 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2009 : 20:43:14
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quote:
Originally posted by rocker
You know I'd be interested to know if Arthur thought of himself as a success. I think that that in the scheme of things is what counts. I sure hope he did think of himself as contributing to that time in life that he lived in. Now I think that was his whole mantra if you ask me. Ok hang around here but make sure you ain't taking up space and time!...
I think he realized the scope of Love and FC with his final UK tours. The fans let him know..thanks Brits! But even then he was looking for validation and didn't quite believe the praise.....he needed that validation.... never got it from the Hall. Wish he had been inducted before his passing ....for Arthur.'s sake....even if I think the Hall is a joke.
____________________________________________________________
Try as much as possible to be wholly alive, with all your might,
and when you laugh, laugh like hell,
and when you get angry, get good and angry.
Try to be alive. You will be dead soon enough.
--william saroyan
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Edited by - lemonade kid on 12/10/2009 20:44:40 |
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ThomasGalasso
Old Love
USA
712 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2009 : 21:16:18
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Agreed Lemonadekid, agreed.
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rocker
Old Love
USA
3606 Posts |
Posted - 13/10/2009 : 21:27:45
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lk..."thanks brits"
Same here. You know I have to say that I think if it wasn't for the musical people in the UK taking care of Love's legacy Love and Arthur wouldn't have the publicity they have today. For some reason, the US was very passive in its pickup of Love. Going on the light side,I go back now to scully's quip of brits being heh heh "miserable gits". I don't know maybe Arthur's music brought them closer to "miserableness"??!!! And if it wasn't that what was it?.... Good ole plain rock'n'roll???.. From the looks of it they just seemed to have had a great affinity for his music. |
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scully
Fourth Love
United Kingdom
217 Posts |
Posted - 18/10/2009 : 09:51:33
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quote:
Originally posted by John9
In his 2003 comments for the Out There compilation, Arthur explains how his 1970 band had persuaded him to think of Love's first three albums as a 'false start'. I wonder what it really was though that led him astray at such a crucial time. Severe drugs abuse may be one explanation. The influence of Hendrix could well have been another. But by the release of False Start at the end of the year, Love had gone from being amongst rock's greatest innovators to becoming just another heavy band. Their lyrics and arrangements had become simplistic and they were not doing anything that hadn't already been done far better by Cream, Led Zeppelin....or indeed Hendrix himself. And it remains a complete mystery to me.
I think as well you have to bear in mind the declining fortunes of the first three albums (at least in the US). From a 'hit' single on the 1st LP (and a top 50 LP -- not bad for a debut) to a commercial disaster on Forever Changes, while around him AL could see Jimi, The Doors etc etc all 'making it'. The other thing for FC songs is reproducing them on stage - until Stockholm 2002 I don't think Love had any strings/horns on stage (think the '94 gigs with the high llamas may have had some extra musicians, my memory is distorted...) and what a revelation that was. That Stockholm show was the first time I ever cried at a gig, at least one that I was enjoying. |
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Joe Morris
Old Love
3491 Posts |
Posted - 19/10/2009 : 01:37:46
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Black Beauty tracks are coming out this month on Sundazed
At least there seems to be overlap with Black Beauty and the 1971 Columbia recordings (though some of the titles they get wrong -
its "Young and Able" Sundazed!
Of course Sundazed hasn't read old interviews of Rozelle in the Castle, and thus would not know that
God bless Sundazed and their work! (now if they'd only put out more Bryan, and no more worship songs! 3 discs on Praise & Worship and
Intra Muros is enough for me!)
Very interesting thread. I'm going to just lurk and read it from here on in
Hello I must be going!  |
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ZFarrar
Fourth Love
USA
164 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2009 : 06:57:53
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Some points need to be made:
1) I guess I'm the only one who will say it: Love-post 1968 had zero charisma-chemistry-appeal.
The audience had moved on, the harder rock of the new Love was pretty passe when matched up
against everything from Who-10 Years After-Led Zep-Cream even the Moody Blues.
2) When Bryan left the band it became a solo act. |
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Love in 1970 - Decline and Fall
