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John9
Old Love
United Kingdom
2154 Posts |
 Posted - 11/10/2009 : 11:33:27
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| When Love arrived in Britain for their first ever tour outside their home country, I think it is true to say that much of their audience was expecting the flower children of Forever Changes. In contrast, what they actually got was a hard rocking, progressive outfit that was adept at jamming interminably on stage....though of course true afficianados already knew of the fine and musically complex work on Four Sail and Out Here. We know from the 1970 live recordings that only two Forever Changes songs were ever included in their setlists....but then I suppose performers were understandably always more interested in showcasing their most recent recordings. In his 2003 comments for the Out There compilation, Arthur explains how his 1970 band had persuaded him to think of Love's first three albums as a 'false start'. I wonder what it really was though that led him astray at such a crucial time. Severe drugs abuse may be one explanation. The influence of Hendrix could well have been another. But by the release of False Start at the end of the year, Love had gone from being amongst rock's greatest innovators to becoming just another heavy band. Their lyrics and arrangements had become simplistic and they were not doing anything that hadn't already been done far better by Cream, Led Zeppelin....or indeed Hendrix himself. And it remains a complete mystery to me. |
Edited by - John9 on 11/10/2009 12:06:53 |
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caryne
Old Love
United Kingdom
1520 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2009 : 13:29:12
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| Your comments make a lot of sense. However, I have noticed in many years of gig going that most bands seem to dislike their early albums and play little from them preferring whatever is their current 'thing', whilst most fans like the early stuff. I guess the bands, Arthur included, feel they are maturing with their sound and getting better whereas, in reality, it is, usually, the sound they made at the start that got people interested in them and that people want to hear. It is always the dilemma with any band, do we play what we want or do we give the audience what they want? Some bands go for the happy medium but most, including Arthur in the 1970's, do not. |
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John9
Old Love
United Kingdom
2154 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2009 : 15:41:02
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Yes Caryne, you are quite right. On Joni Mitchell's Miles of Ailes live album (from I think, 1974) some members of the audience are calling for Carey and Both Sides Now. Ms Mitchell then exclaims that no one ever said to Van Gogh: "paint A Starry Night again". Of course, the audience gets what they want....eventually. I suppose that the difference with Joni though is that in 1974, some of her best work still lay ahead of her. In Arthur's 2003 comments that I alluded to above, he goes on to say: " I really shouldn't have listened to them.......I think that Forever Changes is the best album I ever made." And in that same year (2003) how gloriously and triumphantly did he reaffirm that belief on stage! It is perhaps only with maturity that some artists will reclaim their most brilliant work as their own....funny that, really.  |
Edited by - John9 on 11/10/2009 15:46:51 |
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caryne
Old Love
United Kingdom
1520 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2009 : 15:44:27
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quote:
Originally posted by John9
Yes Caryne, you are quite right. On Joni Mitchell's Miles of Ailes live album (from I think, 1974) some members of the audience are calling for Carey and Both Sides Now. Ms Mitchell then exclaims that no one ever said to Van Gogh: "paint A Starry Night again". Of course, the audience gets what they want....eventually. I suppose that the difference with Joni though is that in 1974, some of her best work still lay ahead of her. In Arthur's 2003 comments that I alluded to above, he goes on to say: " I really shouldn't have listened to them.......I think that Forever Changes is the best album I ever made. And in that same year (2003) how gloriously and triumphantly did he reaffirm that belief on stage!
Yes, at least we must be grateful that Arthur realised in the end what was his best work and we had all those great concerts to enjoy. |
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stewart
Old Love
United Kingdom
568 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2009 : 18:29:11
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quote:
Originally posted by John9
When Love arrived in Britain for their first ever tour outside their home country, I think it is true to say that much of their audience was expecting the flower children of Forever Changes. In contrast, what they actually got was a hard rocking, progressive outfit that was adept at jamming interminably on stage....though of course true afficianados already knew of the fine and musically complex work on Four Sail and Out Here. We know from the 1970 live recordings that only two Forever Changes songs were ever included in their setlists....but then I suppose performers were understandably always more interested in showcasing their most recent recordings. In his 2003 comments for the Out There compilation, Arthur explains how his 1970 band had persuaded him to think of Love's first three albums as a 'false start'. I wonder what it really was though that led him astray at such a crucial time. Severe drugs abuse may be one explanation. The influence of Hendrix could well have been another. But by the release of False Start at the end of the year, Love had gone from being amongst rock's greatest innovators to becoming just another heavy band. Their lyrics and arrangements had become simplistic and they were not doing anything that hadn't already been done far better by Cream, Led Zeppelin....or indeed Hendrix himself. And it remains a complete mystery to me.
Based at seeing them at Leeds Poly in 1970 nothing from 'out here' was played, it was primarily Four Sail material with bits of FC and a splattering of the 1st 2 albums. Neither was there interminable jamming, it was pretty faithful to the record stuff. |
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lemonade kid
Old Love
USA
9875 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2009 : 18:30:12
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And as he so plaintively expresses at the end of Love Story...he's still waiting....
The "HALL" is about as respected as Rolling Stone Magazine these days.
____________________________________________________________
Try as much as possible to be wholly alive, with all your might,
and when you laugh, laugh like hell,
and when you get angry, get good and angry.
Try to be alive. You will be dead soon enough.
--william saroyan
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John9
Old Love
United Kingdom
2154 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2009 : 19:42:03
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quote:
Originally posted by stewart
Based at seeing them at Leeds Poly in 1970 nothing from 'out here' was played, it was primarily Four Sail material with bits of FC and a splattering of the 1st 2 albums. Neither was there interminable jamming, it was pretty faithful to the record stuff.
A friend of mind who saw them at Leeds Poly says that they did Stand Out(their new single)and Love Is More Than Words there...as well as the long version of Signed DC. Those three are certainly on The Blue Thumb Recordings 'Live in England' album - albeit from the London Roundhouse and Waltham Forest concerts. And there's no denying that newly recruited lead guitarist, Gary Rowles did lend more of a heavy metal sound to the band for that tour...as well as for the ensuing album, False Start. |
Edited by - John9 on 11/10/2009 20:00:10 |
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caryne
Old Love
United Kingdom
1520 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2009 : 20:10:24
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quote:
Originally posted by John9
quote:
Originally posted by stewart
Based at seeing them at Leeds Poly in 1970 nothing from 'out here' was played, it was primarily Four Sail material with bits of FC and a splattering of the 1st 2 albums. Neither was there interminable jamming, it was pretty faithful to the record stuff.
A friend of mind who saw them at Leeds Poly says that they did Stand Out(their new single)and Love Is More Than Words there...as well as the long version of Signed DC. Those three are certainly on The Blue Thumb Recordings 'Live in England' album - albeit from the London Roundhouse and Waltham Forest concerts. And there's no denying that newly recruited lead guitarist, Gary Rowles did lend more of a heavy metal sound to the band for that tour...as well as for the ensuing album, False Start.
I'm amazed anyone can remember exactly what was played at a gig from nearly 40 years ago, I find it hard to remember what was played at gigs I saw a year or two ago |
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John9
Old Love
United Kingdom
2154 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2009 : 22:05:39
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Ah yes, Caryne ....but this was Love......and it was the first time anyone over here had seen them. How well something is remembered can have more to do with the intensity of the experience than its distance in time. But you're right - remembering just what was done at which gig has something of the anorak about it - it's a tendency I need to guard against!  |
Edited by - John9 on 11/10/2009 22:13:24 |
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ThomasGalasso
Old Love
USA
712 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2009 : 22:32:23
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I look at it this way : Artists continue to create, and its their will, their desire to do so. It would make no sense for Arthur to continue to be hung up on the sound he had with the original band since at the time he probably began to think about record sales, or lack thereof.
It was a maturation in sound for him, hell maybe Arthur peaked too early. I have heard that argument made as well.
The only crime committed on Four Sail, and Out Here is that excursion into heavier more prog territory which in my opinion would have happened anyway had the original line up not been fired. Laughing Stock, and Your Mind and We Belong Together do not sound that far off from some of the tunes I heard on Four Sail.
I do prefer the sound and the vibe, of the first three, but the next two are also great works, but maybe its as simple as the vibe that is different i.e. different personnel playing on the records. |
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John9
Old Love
United Kingdom
2154 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2009 : 22:44:51
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| Yes Thomas....I can go with all of that. Even the groups that managed to keep their original lineups together were becoming heavier and more progressive from 1968. And as we've agreed, Four Sail and Out Here are both good albums. But it is the loss of inspiration that Arthur seemed to experience after Out Here - and at the age of only 25 - that I am at a loss to explain. The irony of it is that this mystery has caused me to play False Start probably more often than any other Love album ....as I've searched in vain for some clue in the music that the mind behind it was the genius resposible for Forever Changes.....but then that I suppose is between me and my analyst! |
Edited by - John9 on 11/10/2009 22:56:16 |
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ThomasGalasso
Old Love
USA
712 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2009 : 22:51:52
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I agree with that John.
I too am interested in that. It does seem like he lost something. I was listening to Vindicator and Black Beauty yesterday and began to think like, "damn why couldn't he do more of a Sly Stone or Funkadelic thing?", and yeah, maybe Arthur stopped giving a damn or was so jaded and spending so much time trying to get high that he was over it.
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ThomasGalasso
Old Love
USA
712 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2009 : 22:56:01
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Like listen to Funkadelic or some Sly and the Family Stone and then listen to Vindicator and Black Beauty, and I see what you are talking about. I feel like he was trying to change with the times, and mentally he wanted to make more aggressive music that had the feel of what many people thought black music was supposed to sound like.
But yeah, the charm was lost by then. False Start lacks a lot of charm, and it lacks a certain energy that makes me want to hear it again. I would rather listen to Sly or Funkadelic than False Start I will admit.
A friend of mine who worked with Arthur around that time, said that he was very heavy into drugs, cars, firearms, and whatever else at that time. He stated to me that Arthur really began to go over the deep end around 1969 or so in terms of his lack of mental health.
I often wonder if Arthur ever viewed himself as a fraud. I feel like he did. I don't believe Arthur was a fraud, but I believe he thought of himself as such which would also help explain the energy that is carried over on those recordings such as Out Here, False Start, Vindicator, Black Beauty, and Reel to Real. |
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caryne
Old Love
United Kingdom
1520 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2009 : 23:14:27
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quote:
Originally posted by John9
Yes Thomas....I can go with all of that. Even the groups that managed to keep their original lineups together were becoming heavier and more progressive from 1968. And as we've agreed, Four Sail and Out Here are both good albums. But it is the loss of inspiration that Arthur seemed to experience after Out Here - and at the age of only 25 - that I am at a loss to explain. The irony of it is that this mystery has caused me to play False Start probably more often than any other Love album ....as I've searched in vain for some clue in the music that the mind behind it was the genius resposible for Forever Changes.....but then that I suppose is between me and my analyst!
You are right John, Four Sail and Out Here are good albums but they are not great albums. To put it simply I believe that Arthur simply lost his 'mojo', to coin a phrase, not helped by the band he was with producing a sound that was, to be honest, like any other band that was producing similar stuff at the time. I have a tendency to suspect that Arthur really did know that 'Forever Changes' was his masterpiece (though would probably not admit it, even to himself) and it was this that caused the problem.
Unlike Thomas, I do not hear either 'prog' or the funk of Sly Stone or Funkadelic in the albums but I do hear the classic rock of the time that must have been all around Arthur. I wonder if he was doing go with flow music as he really wasn't sure what else to do? |
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caryne
Old Love
United Kingdom
1520 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2009 : 23:16:27
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quote:
Originally posted by John9
Ah yes, Caryne ....but this was Love......and it was the first time anyone over here had seen them. How well something is remembered can have more to do with the intensity of the experience than its distance in time. But you're right - remembering just what was done at which gig has something of the anorak about it - it's a tendency I need to guard against!
I have seen many fantastic bands over the last 30 odd years of gig going and had many intense experiences but ask me to provide a complete setlist from any of those evenings and I just couldn't do it.. I hold my hand out to anyone who can |
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ThomasGalasso
Old Love
USA
712 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2009 : 23:31:21
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I only hear Sly and the Family Stone/Funkadelic potential in the albums False Start, Vindicator, and Black Beauty, and of course Reel to Real.
Four Sail, and Out Here I do not see that potential. I see prog for sure with songs like August which is a prog song based off the chord structures as well as songs such as Doggone with the drum solo, and of course Love is More Than Words (Or Better Late Than Never). The song Good Times also fits into the jazz-rock realm of things. Prog and jazz-rock are in many cases the same thing from what I have learned.
I think Out Here could have used a touch of Bryan MacLean as well as maybe some better sequencing in terms of the track order. |
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Love in 1970 - Decline and Fall
