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caryne
Old Love

United Kingdom
1520 Posts

Posted - 06/01/2010 :  18:48:33  Show Profile  Visit caryne's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Martin Pravda

Ah MES can indeed come out with some rubbish, but I can never tell whether he is saying it with tounge in cheek just to wind people like me up (who do take offense at right wing bollocks) or whether he is genuine, as he comes out with all sorts directed at all sorts of people. But I guess it is kind of irrelevent as he definetly comes across as a unpleasent person who I certainly would't want to socialise with. But with music when I can I try to put personality aside from the sound, and I find with the Fall that is very possible as his lyrics are very poetic and not at all right wing. Over the last year or 2 I've started getting into a bit of Black Metal, and some of the best artists are the most horrible characters with the most shocking views. But a lot of the music is instrumental, so I find it easy to just switch off and not think about who is making it. I can see what you mean though, some artists make it very difficult - I remember finding it hard to listen to Morrissey after his horrible nationalistic rant in the NME a few years ago, but over time I managed to put that to one side as it's his vocals I like him for, and certainly not his political views.

Today I've been listening to a lot of Spiritualized. I've always kind of liked them but when wanting to listen to some post Spacemen 3 stuff I've gone for Sonic Boom/Spectrum/Peter Kember over it, but the early Spiritulized stuff is actually very good as well.



The thing is with Moz is that 90% of his views are very left wing and the whole nationalistic thing, that the NME love to keep digging up, is part of his, I think, very naive loving of the kind of Britain he thought existed in the 60's (see all The Smiths covers to get what I mean, if anyone reading this does not). Mark E Smith, on the other hand, talks nasty, misogynist, ideas all the time and I can't find anything to agree with, I know enough people who have known him over the years to be 99.9% sure he does actually believe what he says and isn't on some big wind-up. Personally I simply cannot listen to anything recorded by someone I disliked as much as I dislike him and, to be honest, apart from the very early Fall stuff, I don't really like what he does anyway.
As for the 'Black Metal' stuff, like you say, the majority of people involved in that are not at all pleasant, to say the least, and I just wouldn't encourage them by buying or even listening to the stuff. Even if something is instrumental I just wouldn't want to patronise the people who made the music. I don't expect others to agree with me but that's how I feel.
Obviously I cannot agree with the views/politics of all the artists I enjoy but when they are extreme, like Mark E Smith and 'Black Metal' bands, I have to draw the line.

On a different topic, yes, Spiritualized/Spacemen 3 are very good, I've seen Spiritualized several times over the years and the shows are always fantastic to watch and listen to.

Edited by - caryne on 06/01/2010 18:51:23
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Martin Pravda
Fourth Love

United Kingdom
104 Posts

Posted - 06/01/2010 :  19:32:10  Show Profile  Visit Martin Pravda's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I can really see where you are coming from, and I'll say that I've never bought a black metal record from an artist I've known to have these views for the reasons you stated, I've always found other means of listening...but I find it difficult to get too much into this mindset just because I think 90% of great musicians are very nasty characters - and when I buy a record the majority of the money is going to greedy buisnesses who are completly ripping the listener off. I've heard bad stories about MES as well, but I think what its about is trying to seperate art from its creator which sometimes I admit is impossible, but sometimes I find it easy. For instance if you heard for example some bad stories about one of the members of British Sea Power, or even something about Arthur Lee - do you think it would make any considerable difference to your feelings about British Sea Powers live performance or Forever Changes? I'd argue that it probably wouldn't, or at least it is something you would be able to come to terms with after a while - as I did with Moz. I think when you don't really like something that much anyway then political views which are seperate to music can be a decider to whether you will passively enjoy it, or whether you will just completly switch off - and that has definetly been the case with me. But I think with great music and art the creator becomes to an extent seperate to the music, and if it is good enough to achieve this then I think it becomes possible to make that seperation. One strong example is Joy Division, I've read awful things about how Ian Curtis treated his wife, and they definetly flirted with fascism in their live performance (which doesn't mean they themselves are fascists but its something I'm very much against doing). But this is widely excused as Ian was a "tortured artist". My argument is you could probably say the same about MES - and certainly a lot of these Black Metal artists, but in just a less obvious way. It is easy to make the excuse with Joy Division because they are one of the greatest bands in history, and this has meant that it is easy to seperate who Ian Curtis was with the music he created.
Just the way I look at it anyway

Edited by - Martin Pravda on 06/01/2010 19:39:49
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caryne
Old Love

United Kingdom
1520 Posts

Posted - 06/01/2010 :  20:13:42  Show Profile  Visit caryne's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Martin Pravda

I can really see where you are coming from, and I'll say that I've never bought a black metal record from an artist I've known to have these views for the reasons you stated, I've always found other means of listening...but I find it difficult to get too much into this mindset just because I think 90% of great musicians are very nasty characters - and when I buy a record the majority of the money is going to greedy buisnesses who are completly ripping the listener off. I've heard bad stories about MES as well, but I think what its about is trying to seperate art from its creator which sometimes I admit is impossible, but sometimes I find it easy. For instance if you heard for example some bad stories about one of the members of British Sea Power, or even something about Arthur Lee - do you think it would make any considerable difference to your feelings about British Sea Powers live performance or Forever Changes? I'd argue that it probably wouldn't, or at least it is something you would be able to come to terms with after a while - as I did with Moz. I think when you don't really like something that much anyway then political views which are seperate to music can be a decider to whether you will passively enjoy it, or whether you will just completly switch off - and that has definetly been the case with me. But I think with great music and art the creator becomes to an extent seperate to the music, and if it is good enough to achieve this then I think it becomes possible to make that seperation. One strong example is Joy Division, I've read awful things about how Ian Curtis treated his wife, and they definetly flirted with fascism in their live performance (which doesn't mean they themselves are fascists but its something I'm very much against doing). But this is widely excused as Ian was a "tortured artist". My argument is you could probably say the same about MES - and certainly a lot of these Black Metal artists, but in just a less obvious way. It is easy to make the excuse with Joy Division because they are one of the greatest bands in history, and this has meant that it is easy to seperate who Ian Curtis was with the music he created.
Just the way I look at it anyway



Like you say there are places where you draw the line. I'm not too keen on Tories or Republicans, for example, but someone just voting for those parties wouldn't necessarily stop me enjoying their music. It's the extremes I simply have to avoid, for example I couldn't enjoy anything produced by a member of the BNP and if someone I did like turned out to be a BNP supporter I would simply cease to enjoy it, I just wouldn't want to have anything to do with it. You are certainly right that many musicians, Arthur included (which we have discussed here much before), have sides to their character that are far from pleasant but I find I can draw the line at this and it is just extreme views that I avoid. If I did not then there might not be much left to listen to! MES has just spent so many years being a totally vile human being and esposuing vile views so I just can't be bothered with him.

Edited by - caryne on 06/01/2010 21:35:38
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Martin Pravda
Fourth Love

United Kingdom
104 Posts

Posted - 06/01/2010 :  21:12:56  Show Profile  Visit Martin Pravda's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Fair enough, to be honest I think I'm arguing a line most my other left wing friends would disagree with me on; in terms of being able to listen to something written by a fascist if it had no impression on the music at all. And if I'm perfectly honest I dont think I'd be able to get into a band who had a known member of the BNP in them. I guess with the Black Metal stuff I put it down to some sort of mental issues which have no real connection to the instrumental music they make at all. I just couldn't do that with an active member of the BNP.

Currently listening to Slowdive. Spiritulized has got me into quite a spacey mood!

Edited by - Martin Pravda on 06/01/2010 21:16:06
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Martin Pravda
Fourth Love

United Kingdom
104 Posts

Posted - 07/01/2010 :  13:46:49  Show Profile  Visit Martin Pravda's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I've got REM on today - they are such a mainstream act that music lovers dont tend to be sensitive enough to how amazing some of their work is!
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caryne
Old Love

United Kingdom
1520 Posts

Posted - 07/01/2010 :  14:30:40  Show Profile  Visit caryne's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Martin Pravda

I've got REM on today - they are such a mainstream act that music lovers dont tend to be sensitive enough to how amazing some of their work is!



I'm quite fond of a bit of REM, I'm particularly keen on Stipe's comment when asked about his sexuality, he replied 'I'm neither heterosexual or homosexual, I'm just sexual'. I love those who refuse to be pigeonholed.
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boombox
Old Love

United Kingdom
532 Posts

Posted - 08/01/2010 :  14:40:32  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by lemonade kid
Sill's BBC sessions are brilliant.

I have a question, boomer...did yours (if you got the "Live
in London BBC Recordings 1972-73", 2007 Water) contain TWO
identical CDs, each one stuffed in the two sides of the gatefold eco-pack. Did yours do that ...a mistake at factory I assume?



No extra CD for me - just the CD and a booklet in the other side. If you didn't get the booklet with yours, let me know and I will scan it and email it.
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Martin Pravda
Fourth Love

United Kingdom
104 Posts

Posted - 08/01/2010 :  15:26:53  Show Profile  Visit Martin Pravda's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I've had the Nice - Five Bridges on all day. Such a classic for various reasons, and pefect revision music! Sadly it's a record which seems to be getting mentioned less and less though. Hopefully good early 70s prog will live past the negative association with **** late 70s and 80s prog.
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rocker
Old Love

USA
3606 Posts

Posted - 08/01/2010 :  22:10:42  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
some coldplay on.....what do you guys think of the band?..Initially, I didn't hear much but recently I've started to hear more..I'm beginning to like their style...what's the criticism out there?...
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caryne
Old Love

United Kingdom
1520 Posts

Posted - 08/01/2010 :  23:18:28  Show Profile  Visit caryne's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by rocker

some coldplay on.....what do you guys think of the band?..Initially, I didn't hear much but recently I've started to hear more..I'm beginning to like their style...what's the criticism out there?...



One of the dullest bands of the last few years and generally, in the UK, disliked by a hell of a lot of people. Mind you they still sell in large quantities so someone must like them.... I just don't know who
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MikeP
Fifth Love

406 Posts

Posted - 09/01/2010 :  01:34:30  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Er, dull people? (With the honourable exeption of Rocker, of course).
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lemonade kid
Old Love

USA
9450 Posts

Posted - 09/01/2010 :  18:14:56  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by MikeP

Er, dull people? (With the honourable exeption of Rocker, of course).

Thank god for differences of opinion...

____________________________________________________________
Everybody's got something to hide 'cept for me and my monkey.
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MikeP
Fifth Love

406 Posts

Posted - 10/01/2010 :  05:05:17  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Absoltely, lk - without differences of opinion - and the freedom to express them - we might as well be androids. Or dead.
NP:
'Officium' - Jan Garbarek
'Lead Us Not Into Temptation' - David Byrne
'Pour Down Like Silver' - Richard And Linda Thompson
'Silverwater' - The Necks
'Piano, Bass, Drums' - The Necks
'I Want You' - Marvin Gaye
'Once Upon A Time In The West' s/t - Ennio Morricone
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waxburn
Old Love

USA
735 Posts

Posted - 10/01/2010 :  06:16:47  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by MikeP

Absoltely, lk - without differences of opinion - and the freedom to express them - we might as well be androids. Or dead.
NP:
'Officium' - Jan Garbarek
'Lead Us Not Into Temptation' - David Byrne
'Pour Down Like Silver' - Richard And Linda Thompson
'Silverwater' - The Necks
'Piano, Bass, Drums' - The Necks
'I Want You' - Marvin Gaye
'Once Upon A Time In The West' s/t - Ennio Morricone



LOVE - FALSE START
BOB DYLAN- BLOOD on the TRACKS
JOE SOUTH- GREATEST HITS
LAURA NYRO_ NY TENDERBERRY
NEIL DIAMOND GREATEST HITS
JOHNNY MATHIS- GREATEST HITS
ATLAS SOUND- LOGOS
VINCE MARTIN- IF THE JASMINE DONT GET YOU
BURNING SPEAR- MARCUS GARVEY
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lemonade kid
Old Love

USA
9450 Posts

Posted - 10/01/2010 :  09:17:06  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by waxburn

quote:
Originally posted by MikeP

Absoltely, lk - without differences of opinion - and the freedom to express them - we might as well be androids. Or dead.
NP:
'Officium' - Jan Garbarek
'Lead Us Not Into Temptation' - David Byrne
'Pour Down Like Silver' - Richard And Linda Thompson
'Silverwater' - The Necks
'Piano, Bass, Drums' - The Necks
'I Want You' - Marvin Gaye
'Once Upon A Time In The West' s/t - Ennio Morricone





LOVE - FALSE START
BOB DYLAN- BLOOD on the TRACKS
JOE SOUTH- GREATEST HITS
LAURA NYRO_ NY TENDERBERRY
NEIL DIAMOND GREATEST HITS
JOHNNY MATHIS- GREATEST HITS
ATLAS SOUND- LOGOS
VINCE MARTIN- IF THE JASMINE DONT GET YOU
BURNING SPEAR- MARCUS GARVEY


John Martyn-Liquid Air
Pentangle-Basket of Light
Nick Drake-Pink Moon
Richard & Linda Thompson- Pour Down Like Silver! Great Pick!!
Tom Waits-Heart of Saturday Night
Gene Clark-No Other
Donovan-Sunshine Superman
Dylan-Blonde On Blonde

____________________________________________________________
Everybody's got something to hide 'cept for me and my monkey.
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