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rocker
Old Love

USA
3606 Posts

Posted - 08/07/2009 :  14:05:13  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Came across a piece on Ringo where he's looked upon as a great one in the art of drumming. He did his magic in arguably the greatest rock group of all time. So do the drummers here agree????? lk..did you learn how to hit the high-hat through Ringo?????...

caryne
Old Love

United Kingdom
1520 Posts

Posted - 08/07/2009 :  20:51:26  Show Profile  Visit caryne's Homepage  Reply with Quote
As Lennon (I think it was) once said, Ringo wasn't even the greatest drummer in The Beatles!! I've known plenty of drummers in my time and can't say any ever really rated Ringo. As many know, I'm not a Beatles fan (arguably the most over rated band in the world, I think) but even if I was I don't think I would particularly rate the drumming.
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bob f.
Old Love

USA
1308 Posts

Posted - 08/07/2009 :  22:11:44  Show Profile  Visit bob f.'s Homepage  Reply with Quote
Ringo,my favorite drummer, influenced me to drum, I even had a 1965 Ludwig set! it's his steady style, unique fills, and a special magic that I never heard before The Beatles. His "simple" style respected the music, and that meant a lot to me. one kick drum/crash cymbal moment packed a punch !!

...what the world needs now...
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rocker
Old Love

USA
3606 Posts

Posted - 09/07/2009 :  14:29:53  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
You know the writer made mention of his drumming on She Loves You, Ticket to Ride, Rain ('controlled chaos') and I Saw Her Standing There. I don't know all the tech stuff on drumming but you sure can hear Starr do his stuff on the songs. Maybe not the greatest drummer
but he helped make that Beatle sound.
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lemonade kid
Old Love

USA
9606 Posts

Posted - 09/07/2009 :  15:38:02  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
It has been said that one could set a metronome to Ringo's beat and his timing would never 'miss a beat'. His left handed fills were what everyone tried to copy. Ringo said the "Rain" part was the hardest to play and maintain....and my favorite. But I love 'She Said She Said' too.

Yeah, one couldn't help picking up on Ringo's beat just by listening to Beatle's music SO much!
He was included in the authoritative book I mentioned a while back about the best 60's rock drummer's top 15...all time. I agree. Saying who is first or second.... is just silly, but Michael Stuart is in there too, which MSW was rather flattered by.....to be included with Mitch Mitchell, Keith Moon.....and Michael loves Ringo too.

I love Ringo's drumming, as most drummers I know DO. But then, I listen for the drumming on any new or old track as much or more than the rest of the instruments or EVEN vocals. Always a drummer at heart!

I've also heard Johnn Beatle say that Ringo was the best drummer in the world and admired him very much...... and that's why they pursued him in the first place and he was considered the best drummer in England, pre-Beatles, as we all know. Lennon's quotes are wonderful and sometimes very 'deep', but can be taken with a grain of salt, depending on his mood and when it was said. John could have chosen any drummer in the world, post Beatles.......any they would have jumped at the chance, so why would he have chosen Ringo so many times. Johnny did love to sling the BS sometimes as we all know!! It's easy to take a single quote to fit our point of view...I choose the one where Johnny loves Ringo.

Love Ringo!! His personal appeal also sold the early Beatles as much as any member.



____________________________________________________________
Never run from anything immortal. It attracts their attention.

Edited by - lemonade kid on 09/07/2009 15:48:56
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rocker
Old Love

USA
3606 Posts

Posted - 09/07/2009 :  15:59:41  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
so lk how do you think decisions were made when it came to drums on the songs? Mostly Ringo or a collaboration? I'd wonder especially how far McCartney and Lennon let Ringo go with the sound?
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lemonade kid
Old Love

USA
9606 Posts

Posted - 09/07/2009 :  16:42:36  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by rocker

so lk how do you think decisions were made when it came to drums on the songs? Mostly Ringo or a collaboration? I'd wonder especially how far McCartney and Lennon let Ringo go with the sound?

I can only say that from their Archive material, they seemed to work songs out (Lennon, McCartney & Harrison) on their own, individually, and then bring in the rest of the mates to get it down. I'm guessing it was much like Arthur and Michael. They all trusted their drummer to follow AND add to the song,....with just a few suggestions on a song or two (their own likely). .... such as, "how about a "bop de bop wham, right here". But those tremendous song-long-fills had to be Ringo's creation.....Paul's drumming was worthy on his solo efforts, but he was no Ringo...at least he's never been mentioned as one of the best drummers ever! Ringo was very assured in his drumming and licks....unlike his rather shy and appealing roles in their brilliant movies.

I remember reading how Ed Cassidy of Spirit would constantly work on new licks and beats that Randy would sometimes even write a tune for, just because it was so brilliant. Pretty rare for the drum part to come FIRST!! I don't think Beatles worked like that, but wouldn't we love to have been a fly on the wall in studio sessions....or an invited guest, like respected friend Donovan, during the Sgt. Pepper's recordings.

Talk about envy!!!!

PS>>>rocker---i don't think many a drummer has been given as much freedom to drum as Ringo. "Rain" is a non-stop drum solo with all the rest playing along. But he also knew how to make his drum part as distinctive and unmistakable as the song itself. How many drum parts from a famous tune could be played without the rest of the 'backing' and you would still recognize it?!! Hell, quite a few of Ringo's parts!!! I think he knew when to use restraint and when to let loose. And I'm sure the others knew how to use Ringo to their best advantage....some songs just begged for nothing more than a constant beat. They seem to have all known what they were doing.....ya! Don't you think.


____________________________________________________________
Never run from anything immortal. It attracts their attention.

Edited by - lemonade kid on 09/07/2009 16:55:01
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GreenTea89
First Love

USA
5 Posts

Posted - 09/07/2009 :  22:28:06  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
White Album was my first Album and inspired my musically taste so much!

It's only now when words are said that break my heart in two, I wonder how you can endure all I've said, all I say to you.
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harvey
Fourth Love

United Kingdom
142 Posts

Posted - 10/07/2009 :  00:25:27  Show Profile  Send harvey a Yahoo! Message  Reply with Quote
OK guys and girls ...Reality check here. Jim Keltner played a lot of the drums on early Beatles recordings as Ringo could not do it. (allegedly)... Ringo soon learnt but had to be shown the way to go. There was such a noise from the audience during live gigs that all four could have been playing anything. Several other drummers aided and abetted on recordings. This is not a new topic and has been talked about on many occasions over the years.I do not think Ringo claimed to be a very good drummer, just good enough. And when Ringo had his own record label Ringo Records, I played the drums on the first record that was released ...Ringo 0001. Record was made by Colonel Bogie and featured Doug Bogie the last bass player with Queen before Deacon joined. Record only sold about 40,000 copies here (UK) and USA and rumour was that Ringo only released it as a tax loss, possibly on advice of Alan Klein (RIP). Copies of record have appeared for sale on Ebay with lots of people having claimed that all sorts of famous musicians played on it but not true, only me and Doug.
Harvey the roadie
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lemonade kid
Old Love

USA
9606 Posts

Posted - 10/07/2009 :  04:15:36  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
So you're saying it was all a sham? Come on. I've seen live stuff by Ringo and he held up on "Rain". I'm not comparing Ringo to Mitch Mitchell, my personal favorite, or Cass ( another great), or Keltner (who I always liked and looked for)......just Ringo as Ringo. He was adequate to the Beatles needs....and reality check-- who was the best band in the world at the time? Hey he's Ringo...warts n' all. He wasn't what producers were used to in the beginning.....maybe rougher and real. But the rest of the Boys wanted Ringo, not session guys as a replacement--maybe to enhance occasionally later on. Anyway, sessions guys have been brought in for even the most talented bass/guitar/drummer band members....politics? or just to add more to the mix. Beatles had guitarists/piano dudes/ sessions guys of all kinds, whatever.........alsooo guilty, Love comes to mind.

Hell, who cared how Beatles played live? They could have stood there grinning for two hours and the girls would have fainted. The Beatles hated it.

At any rate, I'll check your drumming out and I envy you your great luck to be involved in Ringo's recordings. Roadies seem to have been involved with a number of great bands in a musical way........ Bryan comes to mind!!

So.....good to hear from you, Harvey, and cheers. What other recordings have you been involved in?

____________________________________________________________
Never run from anything immortal. It attracts their attention.

Edited by - lemonade kid on 10/07/2009 04:19:31
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rocker
Old Love

USA
3606 Posts

Posted - 10/07/2009 :  14:54:14  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
You know the Beatles sure had some big group dynamics going on. It was at bottom a group of really 2 big big egos. I'd think Ringo was smart in that he didn't have a need to compete with them. He did his stuff and apparently the other 3 didn't disagree. Anyway, he's led an interesting life. Kind of a rags to riches fellow and he wasn't exactly the healthiest of people. Also, he got a little unmoored after the Beatles brokeup. Not sure how he's doing now but coming from the area of Dingle where he grew up he didn't do too bad by playing in a "pretty good" band.
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lemonade kid
Old Love

USA
9606 Posts

Posted - 10/07/2009 :  15:47:27  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Ringo sounded pretty damn good touring with Lennon/Ono, too.

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Never run from anything immortal. It attracts their attention.
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harvey
Fourth Love

United Kingdom
142 Posts

Posted - 10/07/2009 :  21:58:33  Show Profile  Send harvey a Yahoo! Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Lemonade Kid
I was not trying to say anything was sham about Ringo, as I said he soon learnt and provided many outstanding moments over the years, just saying that at the beginning he needed a bit of help I think. It was a well discussed topic in the music press in the early days of the Beatles. I was listening to the radio when they gave their first radio interview live on the BBC when the interviewer asked him the rather obvious question, 'and why do they call you Ringo' 'Its because of all these rings on my fingers' then the interviewer returned to the other 3 which was rather the situation Ringo found himself in with the other songwriters and great instrumentalists in the band. Part of it might have been that he was not in the band when they were doing a lot of the journeyman 'learning the trade' in Hamburg and was not so affected by the loss of Stuart Sutcliffe the 5th Beatle. He was playing with Rory Storm and the Hurricanes and I never knew why the previous Beatles drummer Pete Best was kicked out. I think it was something that Brian Epstein decided was best for the group. Maybe it was supporters of Pete Best who were stirring up the rumours about Ringo not being very good. The thing about the Beatles was that they were one of the first British Bands to make it big. Britain in the early 1960's was not an easy place to be for up and coming young artists. The music biz as it was then was very reluctant to let in new talent and the Musicians Union and Equity the actors and performing artists union were pretty reluctant to let new musicians into their 'club' which meant without being in the musicians union or having an equity 'ticket' ie. permission to perform on a british tv or radio programme... you were basicly stuffed. To get an equity 'ticket 'you had to show that you had been performing under a recognised professional stage name for some time. So it was not easy for a group of young musicians to get anywhere without a good manager who knew the business. So there was not a huge amount of competition opposing the Beatles in those days. A lot of American music and performers was pretty much unheard here in those days as the Unions would prevent American bands performing here unless we could send British bands over to America in exchange. All done to protect the job prospects of British performers. Also if american performers were allowed to perform here they could not bring their own musicians and were provided with British musicians (union members) and any viewing of artists such as Aretha and others in old UK tv footage shows the problem they faced as British Musicians were mainly used to backing old style singers and were totally lacking in what I suppose could be called the 'Funk Factor'. Those musicians that played backing tv singers were doing it 'live ' so were encouraged to play arrangements written by men who had been writing arrangements for years and knew that the tv companies did not want any nasty surprises on TV. It took a long time for british musicians to 'wake up' and it was only with the advent of bands such as Blood, Sweat and Tears and Chicago Transit Authority that arrangers and musicians who had mainly been trained in the British way of playing instruments started to 'get it'. Before if they had tried to play music like that they would have been outcast into the dreaded realms of Jazz which was not the place to earn a living as a musician. I think the american idea that everybody should play an instrument eg in bands at Gridiron Games at college etc meant that a lot more 'loud' brass players were discovered.
So that really is what started the british beat boom, a lot of which was cover versions of songs sung by american bands and singers and then people started to look for the original versions and there was then frantic activity to get the music over here and in exchange to send our music to the States. So there you have it I think, a reason for the British Boom in the early to mid sixties which I think changed the whole world eventually and gave a chance to any young musician to get himself and his music heard by millions of people.This might be a very simplified version of what happened but in the eyes of a teenager in the 60's struggling to get through school and a job that did not use up too much 'music playing time' affording some drums (no credit cards, and parental approval for any hire purchase '' He wants a drum kit, quick Mother call the psyciatrist'') finding somewhere to practise and blokes to practice with who could afford musical instruments (british school children in the early 60's were totally discouraged from playing musical instruments other than violin or piano for classical purposes) and it was considered quite funny by many teachers if you said you were going to join a group and make records. I went to secondary school with Jimmy Page and he had to fight against prejudiced opinions and it was only because he was so good that he made it. (there is an oft shown B&W clip of Page in school uniform being interviewed by the later controller of the BBC stifling a sarcastic smile as Page explains that he and his friend want to play guitar in a skiffle band). But teachers at the school thought it was funny that when he left and made it as a session musician he was playing the instrument that other people were getting paid a lot of money for going on TV and miming to . They did not think he would make much money doing that. How wrong!
So what other recordings did I make, many demos etc, none of which saw the light of day. Mainly played in bands around the London area in the mid to late sixties and beyond and once I had a proper day job in the mid 60's I started to put any spare money into music equipment and once I had a small amount started to work for bands as a roadie or sound engineer. Eventually ended up working for Love (Arthur, John Sterling, Bruce Rozelle, Joe Blocker, Melvyn Whittington) on the 74 English tour as backline / drum roadie. The 3 man crew started off as roadies with the support band Casablanca and when the tour started as Arthur and the band turned up with nobody apart from Bruce Riley we took on crewing for both bands. Using only house lighting 3 was enough 2 backline/ kit/ PA riggers and one sound engineer. No onstage monitor engineer so all pretty basic stuff. Sharing the driving though one person only had a provisional licence and no experience of driving big trucks. Very tiring schedule up and down country, not all gigs with Love and some without suppport. After that I worked for many british acts (Yardbirds etc) over the next few years as well as holding down a regular 9-5 job so pretty much gave up drumming as so little time. Had (and still have) a 10k sound rig (that was a lot in the 1980's, on stage monitor mixing etc) and a lighting rig. Eventually had to cut back on music work as hearing started to suffer, ringing in the ears etc. So started to fix equipment for musicians which I still do occasionally. Do not get to many gigs these days but still take a great interest in the biz and am still in contact with old mates.
I would be a bit surprised if you do get to hear the Colonel Bogie record and it is not really worth the effort. Only a Christmas novelty record. As Doug Bogie was an engineer at CBS London studios we used what spare time there was and the only real costs were to me going in and out of London every evening with the drum kit. Spent a lot of time going there anyway to watch recording sessions with other artists. I do not know how he set up the deal with Ringo Records but do not think Ringo had much involvement.Do not think any body made any money out of the record.
So here I am , not looking to run Ringo down in any way, just repeating what I heard and read over the years talking to people who were there at the time.
Stay Lucky
Harvey the roadie
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lemonade kid
Old Love

USA
9606 Posts

Posted - 11/07/2009 :  04:46:37  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Great write up, Harvey. Really enjoyed hearing of all your times with various bands. Were you and Jimmy mates at school? I'm sure we all here would love to hear more about anything Arthur you would be so kind as to relate. Hell, I'll start a new "Harvey the Roadie" subject.

What period were you involved with the Yardbirds (or New Yardbirds?). We love the Yardbirds here....what was the lineup?

One other question--I've recently discovered the UK band Starry Eyed And Laughing thru RW (a great LA area radio personality). Did you know Tony Poole or ever see them perform. From what I've read they were quite a great live act. They are on constant rotation in my auto CD player this summer!

A few others that I love from the UK....Kaleidoscope, Open Mind, Human Beast, Orange Bicycle....and of course, many here love the Pretties---one of my all time favorite UK or any country's band!!

Again ....good discussion on Ringo mates. From an outsider's view it seemed he was content to be in the background of the World's Greatest Rock band...but then most drummers were in the background weren't they.

Thanks, Harvey. Your funny story of kids looking to play in bands and actually make money!! reminded me of my folks telling me when I got my drum kit that it was cool ....but the minute my hair got TOO LONG, I was out of the music "biz" ( I was 15!! )

____________________________________________________________
Never run from anything immortal. It attracts their attention.

Edited by - lemonade kid on 11/07/2009 04:51:18
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harvey
Fourth Love

United Kingdom
142 Posts

Posted - 12/07/2009 :  01:49:25  Show Profile  Send harvey a Yahoo! Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Lemonade Kid
I was a few years behind Jimmy at school so only knew about him and saw him a few times. Yardbirds lineup I worked for was a very late one, no Beck, Page or Clapton only Paul Samwell Smith, Chris Dreja and Jim Mcarty, and a guitarist called John Knightsbridge and a harp player from a group called Nine Below Zero. Of course Keith Relf had already passed away. I had worked for Jim .....and Keith's sister Jane in bands such as Renaissance and Illusion. I have talked on this site a few times about the Yardbirds who were rehearsing in the next road from me here in the early sixties as Chris Dreja lived there. Used to see them driving about and riding bicycles around before they had really hit the big time and a mate of mine knew Chris. Clapton went to school a few hundred yards from here and I know people who went to school with him ( and used to beat him up as he was a sissy who played guitar in the playground) He refers to it briefly in one of his books. A lot of local bands made it big, the Rolling Stones were another local band who met up at the local Art School. Long John Baldry (RIP) heard Rod Stewart singing on a local railway station platform and got him a gig with Cyril Davies. So lots of things happening here in the suburbs of South West London in the early/mid sixties. Me and schoolfriends used to sneak into London Clubs to hear Phil May and the Pretty Things (we were underage of course) so I had to be in on all that scene. On leaving school I started to grow my hair and have only had it cut about 10 times since then and I am 60 now. My excuse was that if I was sound engineering for some bunch of young long haired kids and I wanted them to turn the guitar down then they might if I looked as though I had 'been there and done that' but if I was a straight looking guy in a suit they would tell me to .....off! Others I have known ... in a list of many, Mitch Mitchell (RIP)owed me a roll of gaffa tape (duct tape). He came rushing into a club I was setting up the PA rig in and was in a real panic. Had a big water leak in a flat he was living in and needed some gaffa tape to fix it temporarily. Who am I to argue with one of the worlds greats. While we are on the Experience subject, I read with interest on this site the story by Johnny Echols about the Wah Wah pedal and how Arthur and the boys did not get how you could use it when Vox gave them one and threw it in the trunk of the car and eventually passed it to Jimmy who worked it out.
As I have been on here before talking about my expeiences of Arthur in 1974 I had better not repeat a lot of it. Just put my name into the search on this site . Suffice it to say he was not in a very good state and had a pretty serious habit. He was trying to do songs which people here had heard using strings and brass etc with a 5 piece band. He was also doing a lot of college gigs on the tour and many people had not really heard of him. Outside of the college gigs people who knew him came to see him and I think most went away happy. A & M records were promoting an album which was the real reason for the tour but we never really saw anyone important from the company and the only thing we got from them was a large display board to put in the entrance to the gigs and we got fed up with lugging that about and it got 'lost' after a few gigs.The band had very little equipment (only what they could carry) with them when they arrived and shared the drums and backline amps so I do not think the tour was that well planned. There again in America you probably tell a hire company to provide you with a fender twin reverb amp at such and such gig and a Ludwig kit and it gets done . Over here the bands roadies hump the same load of equipment, which usually belongs to the musicians, or a hire company, all round the country to each gig. Consequently it gets a bit banged about and I had to do quite a few running repairs to the amps to keep them working. John Sterling had an effects unit with him (cannot remember what type but an expensive mains driven one) and of course it was 120 volt as opposed to 250 volts over here. The band had a couple of very small transformers with them but blew them up trying to run hairdryers etc off them. So we had to find a transformer to run the effects unit. We managed to find a very dodgy looking transformer in the box of bits with the pa rig we had hired. It worked ok but had very strange wiring to a plug. We wired the plug on the FX unit to match it and it worked ok for a few gigs and then the effects unit developed a fault. I took it apart as we suspected it was a dry solder joint but I could not see one anywhere. So I took it to a repair shop in London . I told them it was for Arthur and Love and luckily the engineer was a great fan so fixed it for nothing. Only problem was when we got it to the next gig he had rewired the mains plug which we did not notice, plugged it into the old transformer and smoke started to come out of the effects unit. End of the unit unfortunately which did not please John. Further on Arthur , when he came back here for the last time and did Glastonbury (I think, one of the festivals anyway) and was on Jools Holland's 'Later' and was interviewed by Jools he did not seem to want to talk about touring in the 70's so I think there were times he wanted to forget about.

I have to admit only having heard of one of the bands you mention. Orange Bicycle. Did they do a song called 'My White Bicycle' in the late 60's. Probably not them, only remember it because we used to joke that they were singing 'My wife's bisexual' . you can see the level of humour you are dealing with here.
Ok so drummers that were NOT in the background ... Mooney ... So many stories with him. Got the gig with the Who because he kept turning up at their gigs and telling Townsend their drummer was Crap and he could do much better.( K.M. to roadie....... What do you mean they are horse tranquilizers so I should only take part of one.....give me the bottle!!!....he passed out in the middle of the kit about half an hour later and had to be taken to hospital)...... Ginger.. ( I fear he has probably had to give up playing major gigs now. Cream's last revival was brilliant but he is not well these days)...... Buddy Miles ..such a force behind everything. ... Carmine Appice..saw him a few times with Beck, Bogart and Appice...brilliant. Only a few I know, I will think about it. Lastly but not leastly... The late Charlie Charles... He was with Ian Drury and the Blockheads on all their records. He was the drummer with the support band Casablanca on Arthurs 1974 tour. I worked with him for some time. Just by coincidence there were some old music clips on the TV last night and there he was backing Link Wray. Great drummer, did loads of work with all sorts of bands, incredibly loud player. Used to get up from the kit and dance round the stage with Casablanca and then beckon me onstage to play the drums while he went for a dance. So I got to play on stage at the Rainbow Theatre in London and lots of other well known venues on the tour.Always wanted me to play the soundchecks on the kit as well and Joe Blocker was never around so I seem to remember I might have played a few bars with Arthur on a sound check somewhere. As has been said before,on here, Arthur had a habit of throwing the maraccas into the audience at the end of a gig, only one problem , they belonged to the support band so they were not amused. I had to go and get them back off poor fans who thought Arthur had thrown them a set of maraccas to keep. Some were ok about it but I had a couple of signed drumsticks to exchange if it got awkward.
So there you are a few bits about Arthur and a few non background drummers. Finally a joke from Nick Mason of the Floyd.. When his son told him that when he grew up he wanted to be a drummer... his father said 'dont be silly you cannot do both'.
Talk later maybe
Harvey the roadie
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bob f.
Old Love

USA
1308 Posts

Posted - 12/07/2009 :  21:25:48  Show Profile  Visit bob f.'s Homepage  Reply with Quote
HAPPY BELATED BIRTHDAY TO RINGO. 69 YEARS, JULY 7TH!
DO IT IN THE ROAD !

...what the world needs now...
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