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kdion11
Old Love
USA
552 Posts |
 Posted - 12/09/2008 : 20:01:02
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quote:
Originally posted by John9
Hi Kideon
I concede that there are imperfections in the Live in England 1970 recording - although to my ears they are more to do with the way in which Arthur Lee's voice was recorded or mixed. The distortion on August and Nothing is a particular disappointment to me. In fairness, the Rolling Stone piece from June 1969 was presumably referring to the Jay Donnellan edition of Love rather than the later Gary Rowles lineup. And the guy writing the Cash Box article does seem to have had some experience of the original group in concert. But I agree ..we'll never know for certain unless something really remarkable happens.
KD: Hey John. I wasn't really referring to the quality of the recordings, but with the sloppy and out of tune playing. The idea that Blue Thumb Records wiped the Jimi Hendrix / Love session reels, but kept these other, sloppy, out of tune and badly recorded concert reels from exactly the same time period (March 1970) is also to me hard to believe.
Free the tapes ! |
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John9
Old Love
United Kingdom
2154 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2008 : 21:50:32
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Hi again, Kideon
I can certainly see what what you mean about the Blue Thumb live recordings. Back in 1970 though, I suppose it was quite the vogue to loosen up performances - to the extent that dope driven turgidity often prevailed at the expense of any attempt at subtlety. I never cease to marvel at the contrast between the 1970 live album and the note perfect Forever Changes Concert from 2003. On this site we sometimes lament the passing of the 1960s - but I think that one major advantage of living now is that technology, amongst other things, has given us higher expectations. This said, I still view the 1970 album as an important and fascinating historical document. |
Edited by - John9 on 12/09/2008 21:55:35 |
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lemonade kid
Old Love
USA
9876 Posts |
Posted - 05/10/2008 : 18:34:21
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Michael's answer to my next question.....
My next question for MICHAEL was more technical, in that I wanted to know the details of why the bass & drums were recorded on the same track when FC was recorded. (Michael has said, as most of us know, that he won't listen to FC because of his dissatisfaction with the recording....here's why, and the details).....for me, even the smallest, new detail about LoVE just adds another layer to my listening enjoyment. Hope you all feel the same.....lk.
"I played on the Da Capo & Forever Changes albums, and then on the Laughing Stock/Your Mind And We Belong Together session, so those are the only Love recordings I can speak to. On each one of those sessions Johnny, Kenny, Bryan and I (and on Da Capo, Snoopy and Tjay) laid sown the foundation instrumental tracks, then later we came back in and recorded the vocals. Except "Revelation"...in that cut it was done all at once, with Johnny (vocal), Arthur (harmonica) and Tjay (soprano sax), taking turns in a solo isolation booth. The small book that came with Rhino's 1995 Love Story compilation says the first two Love albums were recorded on 4 track machines, so that would include Da Capo. I'm pretty sure FC was recorded on either 8 or 16 track, because I remember enthusiastic conversations circulating among the recording staff at Sunset Sound about how we had more tracks to work with this time than we had over at RCA.
As we all know, more is sometimes better, sometimes not. In recording. more tracks is almost always better because isolating each instrument onto a separate track allows corrections and adjustments to be made after the initial recording has been completed. Like, if one guy hit a wrong note during an other wise great cut, or that perhaps one instrument was recorded at a volume slightly lower than optimal, no problem....they can simply turn that instrument up in the final mix.
The alternative to isolating each instrument and making corrections after the fact, to get the product as right as can be before everybody leaves the studio, or live with any mistakes that were made, be they vocal, instrumental or mechanical.
On Da Capo, everything was pretty straightforward. Drums, bass, rhythm guitar, lead guitar, sax or flute, keyboards, and vocal...seven. Seven things on four tracks. Dave Hassinger engineered and Paul Rothchild produced. Paul was real laid back and he just seemed to kind of stay out of Dave's hair and let him do his job, because Dave had only just been recording The Rolling Stones right in that very same studio, so obviously he knew his sh#t backwards and forwards. In fact, every time I looked up through the glass, Paul was usually just sitting next to Dave and nodding and eating a jar of macadamia nuts that Bryan had accidentally left in the booth. I guess you would say (at least on Da Capo sessions, because that's all I know him by) Paul Rothchild was a "hands-off kind of record producer. Besides, we had rehearsed the living daylights out those tunes and semi-complicated arrangements on some of the material, everything was tight.....the session went as it was supposed to and it didn't matter that some the instruments were on the same track, because Dave nailed the levels and the mix and the balance....everything, no problem.
But a year later, when we went into Sunset Sound to record Forever Changes, it was a different story altogether (Arthur and Bruce Botnick produced, with Bruce engineering). For one thing, we had a false start.....like we go into the studio, try the first cut, can't get through the first 7 or 8 takes, everybody goes home, they hurry and call in studio cats and chick, they try a couple of tunes but the studio cats and chick sound too plastic., we rehearse some more, then come back in and finally do it. Why couldn't we get it the first time?........
because we hadn't played together for about six months, and the initial rehearsals for the album (few as they were) were nothing more than informal gettin' high sessions......with instruments. Besides, FC was a much more complex project,.....more intricate arrangements, with horns and strings added to the foundation instrumental track, so whatever number of tracks we were working with, be it 8 or 16, they weren't enough to keep Bruce from having to piggyback. I mean, I never saw the paperwork from the sessions that said what instrument was put on the same track as another....I only know that , the second time in, when I told Arthur that the drums need to come up a little, he said, "Man , I can't." The drums are on the same track as the bass,
The "Your Mind And We Belong Together/Laughing Stock? session was produced by Arthur and engineered by John Haeny at Sunset Sound. Whether it was on 8 or 16 track equipment, I have no idea, but the limited number of instruments involved, made everything less complicated, The result was a better sound.
But now....digital recording, virtually unlimited tracks....the drums don't need to go on the same track with another instrument at all. Everybody has his own track. The resulting sound is a product we couldn't have imagined in the late sixties."
--Michael Stuart -Ware
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As we live and breathe,
Somebody must believe. |
Edited by - lemonade kid on 05/10/2008 18:47:17 |
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rocker
Old Love
USA
3606 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2008 : 15:00:10
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| lk...thx for these remarks from Michael..looks like the band had no say in how the tracks were to be set down. And it appears that BB was the one who made all decisions on the recording of the record. Did he do that for the Doors too?? Probably at the time maybe it didn't mean much but in hindsight not getting the the details right can hurt. |
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lemonade kid
Old Love
USA
9876 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2008 : 17:39:02
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quote:
Originally posted by rocker
lk...thx for these remarks from Michael..looks like the band had no say in how the tracks were to be set down. And it appears that BB was the one who made all decisions on the recording of the record. Did he do that for the Doors too?? Probably at the time maybe it didn't mean much but in hindsight not getting the the details right can hurt.
Right, rocker. Don't know if it would have made any difference (for Michael, etc)
to have had the same crew as on Da Capo....mind you, these are technical things, & for
me, FC couldn't be better.
But it makes you wonder when Michael, Arthur, etc, expressed dissatisfaction
over some tracks. Arthur thought the guitar intro to Alone Again Or should be louder,
and since he was involved in the edits & mixes, it must not have been possible, like so
many other aspects due to piggybacking.
Love that detail about the macadamia nuts.....those kind of details just add so much more to
the whole picture for me. 
____________________________________________________________
As we live and breathe,
Somebody must believe. |
Edited by - lemonade kid on 06/10/2008 17:40:32 |
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kdion11
Old Love
USA
552 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2008 : 21:51:50
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quote:
Originally posted by rocker
lk...thx for these remarks from Michael..looks like the band had no say in how the tracks were to be set down. And it appears that BB was the one who made all decisions on the recording of the record. Did he do that for the Doors too?? Probably at the time maybe it didn't mean much but in hindsight not getting the the details right can hurt.
KD: Hey Rocker - as a co-producer of the record, he should have at least consulted with Arthur - but on the other hand Arthur may have left these "technical details" to him. As far as the Doors go, Bruce is only credited as a producer or co-producer on LA Woman. What I find interesting is that no one is claiming where the multi tracks to FC are - or what happened to them.
Free the tapes ! |
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rocker
Old Love
USA
3606 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2008 : 22:07:43
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| kd..I too thought along the lines you did and I have the feeling that the FC recording kind of had how shall we say a 'laissez-faire' attitude when it was put down. It's interesting that FC today is compared with "Pepper" where the Beatles practically slept in the studio with Martin at the sound controls. In any case, "laissez-faire" vs "control" looks like it worked out. I can imagine what would could have come out of the FC sessions if they had those Lennon et al attitudes in the studio. Arguably maybe an album GREATER than Pepper? |
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lemonade kid
Old Love
USA
9876 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2008 : 22:44:44
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quote:
Originally posted by rocker
kd..I too thought along the lines you did and I have the feeling that the FC recording kind of had how shall we say a 'laissez-faire' attitude when it was put down. It's interesting that FC today is compared with "Pepper" where the Beatles practically slept in the studio with Martin at the sound controls. In any case, "laissez-faire" vs "control" looks like it worked out. I can imagine what would could have come out of the FC sessions if they had those Lennon et al attitudes in the studio. Arguably maybe an album GREATER than Pepper?
The audio on Pepper is the high water mark for all others to strive for alright!
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As we live and breathe,
Somebody must believe. |
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lemonade kid
Old Love
USA
9876 Posts |
Posted - 22/10/2008 : 18:20:49
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Here is Michael's answer to the next question(s) I had. Very interesting!! 
Do any of you have any questions for Michael.....he is so kind to answer my questions & seems more than happy to have them posted here...so fire away!
Our unique perspective and drum parts......
True enough...drummers have a unique perspective, because we usually have less to do with the writing and arranging, so maybe we're slightly more free to observe and listen when we're playing. Our higher-profile band brothers, on the other hand, who stand out front, singing and playing the songs they've written, sometimes can't hear the forest for the tress. For one thing, during live performance, the drummer is in a better position to hear a slightly more balanced sound, because he sits between the amps. Most guitar and bass players stand directly in front on their own amp, so naturally, that's what they hear most. In our band, Arthur was the exception because he just played tambourine and harmonica on stage, so he stood more or less in the middle, not in front of an amp at all.....but in front of my drums, actually. When we played the smaller clubs with really small stages, like Bido Lito's, Arthur's head would sometimes be like only three or four feet from my 18" medium crash, which had to be somewhat irritating, because you know, cymbals sort of shatter the air a bit.
Visually, it's another story altogether. Even though we see only the backs of our fellow band members, there are things that make themselves immediately apparent that none of the standing dudes can see quite as easily as the drummer. Like if somebody's missing.
As far as the "preparation to record" process...Arthur and Bryan played the tunes they had written on their acoustic guitars at rehearsals. If the initial acoustic run-through included a particular lead or rhythm or even bass segment that was important to the song, then Johnny or Bryan or Kenny played it on the record, but each guy wrote his own part from the beginning to the end. The only drumming suggestion Arhthur ever made to me, was during the Forever Changes sessions when he asked me to "push the tempo" through certain passages of some of the tunes and most of the way through others. Arthur had lots of great ideas but I respectfully submit that wasn't one of them.
Regarding my drum parts...Da Capo and Forever Changes contained material that demanded a more percussive drum part than what Snoopy played on the first album. I just tried to play what sounded appropriated for each piece.
The "no sheet music and the session guys"......It didn't seem to bother them at all that there was no sheet music. They came in, recorded the track to "Daily Planet" and "Andmoreagain", like any other day at the office and left. When the real group came in to finish the album, Elektra decided to keep the track to "Daily Planet" but we re-recorded the instrumental track to "Andmoreagain". I know you'll read different places that the studio people's version of "andmoreagain" is on the album, but that's wrong.
Just as wrong as any piece of information that says Hal Blaine played drums on "Daily Planet". It was Jim Gordon. Snoopy and I had seen Jim Gordon play with The Everly Brothers at "The Hullabaloo Club" on Sunset one night in early "66. His technique was immaculate.....his fills were flawless and imaginative. Even the Everly's were impressed. Gordon went on to play with Eric Clapton and even co-wrote "Layla". Jim Gordon is just a hell of a musicain....unforgettable, he was.
So, when Johnny and Kenny and Bryan and I arrived at Sunset Sound that day in"67 to "help" the studio people develop parts on FC that would somehow enable them to achieve the "Love sound" (that was our assignment) and saw Jim Gordon there, well.......how could anybody get Hal Blaine and Jim Gordon mixed up? See, it's that "Wrecking Crew" thing. "The Wrecking Crew" were just the same group of studio people in LA who played together for groups that were having trouble doing it themselves instrumentally, and for vocal groups and solo artists who had no regular recording band, So, I don't know...thirty years after the fact, when writers stated asking members of the Forever Changes recording staff who the drummer was on "Planet", they conjured up an image of "The Wrecking Crew", and in their mind's eye, Hal Blaine was sitting right there behind the drums. as usual. But apparently Hal couldn't make it that day....maybe he phoned in sick or something....because the most unusual and incredibly talented Jim Gordon played drums on "Daily Planet". Hal was home in bed, eating chicken soup and watching an "I Love Lucy" rerun.
And when Kenny was showing Carol Kaye what to play on "Daily Planet", Arthur walked by and said, "Hey, man, that sounds good. You go ahead and play the bass, Kenny....she can play guitar or whatever." Carol didn't like playing the guitar. Between takes she kept slinging her hand around in the air and asking, "How many more takes...?", like I guess the little skinny stings hurt her fingers.
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I've wrestled with reality for 35 years, Doctor,
and I'm happy to state I finally won out over it.
-- Elwood P. Dowd
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kdion11
Old Love
USA
552 Posts |
Posted - 23/10/2008 : 01:30:26
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[quote]Originally posted by lemonade kid
Here is Michael's answer to the next question(s) I had. Very interesting!!
Just as wrong as any piece of information that says Hal Blaine played drums on "Daily Planet". It was Jim Gordon. Snoopy and I had seen Jim Gordon play with The Everly Brothers at "The Hullabaloo Club" on Sunset one night in early "66. His technique was immaculate.....his fills were flawless and imaginative. Even the Everly's were impressed. Gordon went on to play with Eric Clapton and even co-wrote "Layla". Jim Gordon is just a hell of a musicain....unforgettable, he was.
KD: Wow - Jim Gordon. Too bad he beat and stabbed his mother
to death and is going to die in prison !
Free the killers ! (just kidding !)
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Joe Morris
Old Love
3492 Posts |
Posted - 23/10/2008 : 03:48:03
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Oh! they don't have the original tapes for Forever Changes?
Its been mastered FOUR times!
I remember Kenny mentioning in an interview that he showed that part to her on the Daily Planet and ended up playing it himself
Now if only Red Light Green Light would surface |
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lemonade kid
Old Love
USA
9876 Posts |
Posted - 23/10/2008 : 19:18:30
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quote:
Originally posted by kdion11
[quote]Originally posted by lemonade kid
Here is Michael's answer to the next question(s) I had. Very interesting!!
Just as wrong as any piece of information that says Hal Blaine played drums on "Daily Planet". It was Jim Gordon. Snoopy and I had seen Jim Gordon play with The Everly Brothers at "The Hullabaloo Club" on Sunset one night in early "66. His technique was immaculate.....his fills were flawless and imaginative. Even the Everly's were impressed. Gordon went on to play with Eric Clapton and even co-wrote "Layla". Jim Gordon is just a hell of a musicain....unforgettable, he was.
KD: Wow - Jim Gordon. Too bad he beat and stabbed his mother
to death and is going to die in prison !
Free the killers ! (just kidding !)
To be fair, Jim was misdiagnosed & treated for alcoholism, when in fact his condition was later known to be schizophrenia. He got 16 to life and efforts are underway to get him out of prison & into a proper care facility. Since he wasn't diagnosed for his trial, I guess the insanity plea wasn't available...a tragic turn for a great artist AND his poor Mother.
If interested, go to link below for his bio & incredible list of artists he has played with! LoVE is NOT there, since it is little known!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Gordon_(musician) ....click "session drummer"
____________________________________________________________
I've wrestled with reality for 35 years, Doctor,
and I'm happy to state I finally won out over it.
-- Elwood P. Dowd
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Edited by - lemonade kid on 23/10/2008 20:16:53 |
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LaylaGordon
First Love
7 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2008 : 13:46:00
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No, Jim Gordon will not die in prison if I have anything to say about it. I find it very sad that people can speak so unkindly about someone who gave so much of himself while suffering. His physicians did not diagnose him properly and the music industry turned their backs on him when he needed help. He never belonged in prison, but rather a hospital where he could receive proper treatment. Prison is no place for the mentally ill. It would be nice to see some of the musicians who he assisted in having some incredible hits form a charity concert to raise funds for the research of the disease that ended his career and his freedom.
LW |
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John9
Old Love
United Kingdom
2154 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2008 : 14:24:14
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quote:
Originally posted by LaylaGordon
No, Jim Gordon will not die in prison if I have anything to say about it. I find it very sad that people can speak so unkindly about someone who gave so much of himself while suffering. His physicians did not diagnose him properly and the music industry turned their backs on him when he needed help. He never belonged in prison, but rather a hospital where he could receive proper treatment. Prison is no place for the mentally ill. It would be nice to see some of the musicians who he assisted in having some incredible hits form a charity concert to raise funds for the research of the disease that ended his career and his freedom.
LW
Very well said, Layla. It is important to avoid being too quick to judge in such a complex and sensitive case. Jim is a great musician and I do wish him peace. |
Edited by - John9 on 09/11/2008 14:37:15 |
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lemonade kid
Old Love
USA
9876 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2008 : 17:08:38
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quote:
Originally posted by LaylaGordon
No, Jim Gordon will not die in prison if I have anything to say about it. I find it very sad that people can speak so unkindly about someone who gave so much of himself while suffering. His physicians did not diagnose him properly and the music industry turned their backs on him when he needed help. He never belonged in prison, but rather a hospital where he could receive proper treatment. Prison is no place for the mentally ill. It would be nice to see some of the musicians who he assisted in having some incredible hits form a charity concert to raise funds for the research of the disease that ended his career and his freedom.
LW
Layla, thank you so much for your words. Michael S-W's words of praise (above) say it all & I've always admired Jim's creatively amazing drumming. I often would hear an album with a particularly fine drumming effort, only to be pleased, but not surprised, to find it was Jim G. All my kind regards for you & Jim and good luck on your efforts to give Jim Gordon his fair treatment in an unfair system. It must be hard to see unkind words spoken, but that is a result of the times & a jaded, desensitized world....still, that is no excuse.
Kindest regards & our prayers for Jim & your efforts, Layla. You can convey my words of support to Jim, for what it's worth.
lk
(too bad Jim hasn't gotten his due for his efforts on Forever Changes....maybe someday, but his list of albums that he played on is a remarkable achievement and says it all)
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Harvey & I warm ourselves in these golden moments.
We came as strangers - soon we have friends. ---Elwood P Dowd |
Edited by - lemonade kid on 09/11/2008 17:14:01 |
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LoVE...with M. Stuart-Ware's kind permission....
