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John9
Old Love
United Kingdom
2154 Posts |
 Posted - 29/03/2009 : 00:32:39
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Most of us have wondered about the tantalising prospect of a fourth album recorded by the original Love in early 1968 - and how it might have yielded the superb Laughing Stock/Your Mind And We single. I have just taken delivery of the first issue of Dave Housden's truly remarkable The Castle which contains a fascinating feature entitled In The Garden Of Gethsamene. The case for the existence of such an album would appear to be largely based on a 1971 letter from Paul McKierman. The core part of it is the track listing which had been reportedly supplied by an Elektra sound engineer in late '69.
In a slightly earlier letter, Paul McKierman (who had already been recommended by Zig Zag magazine as the UK's leading authority on Love) provides some news items that we now know not to be true. He announces that a second tour of Britain (originally reported as being due to take place in November 1970) will happen in early'71 and that it is likely to feature Noony Ricket and the False Start lineup. Of course, the tour never happened and in any event, before October 1970 was out, Love had morphed into the Fayad/Poncher/Tarwater ensemble. Paul goes on to report that a new Love album, also entitled Gethsemane, will feature a number of former band members. Additionally, he offers the enticing prospect of an orchestrated solo release from Arthur Lee entitled Arthur Lee - His Songs, His Life.
In the booklet, for the 1995 Love Story compilation, Rhino stated that an exhaustive search had failed to reveal any further songs from the archives other than Wonder People. In his wonderful survey of The Beatles' catalogue, Jeff Russell asks the question "What constitutes an unreleased track......is it, as the bootleggers would have us believe, every cough, splutter and guitar twang ever commited to tape.......or is it a finished recording once considered as a possible release?" When Arthur was interviewed by The Independent, this exchange happened:
[They had reached their zenith. Soon after Forever Changes, the group effectively disbanded, though rumours persist of a "lost" Love album, Gethsemane. When I show Lee the supposed track list, he laughs and says, "It's so lost even I don't know about it." Though, in a tantalising aside, he remarks: "They may be songs – but with the wrong titles.".]
http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/music/features/arthur-lee-all-you-need-is-love-644620.html
And so even after all the research and attempts at deconstruction, it is still a mystery.......and maybe that's how it should always remain - just like the identity of Shakespeare's 'Dark Lady'. |
Edited by - John9 on 29/03/2009 00:43:14 |
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Joe Morris
Old Love
3492 Posts |
Posted - 29/03/2009 : 09:03:31
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Never happened with the original Love, but maybe Echols will do it..
Stranger things have happened.. the maxim, not the magazine! |
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Lizzyb
Fifth Love
United Kingdom
470 Posts |
Posted - 29/03/2009 : 22:12:42
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Hey that's a blast from the past.
Paul mckiernan's the guy i used to exchange letters with in around 69. He sent me a picture of a child in a toy car that I took to be his son. It was labelled Bryan and I now know that's who it was. He lived in Blackheath and I've been trying to get in touch with him for years. Sure I've mentione dthis before
fancy that
Keep on shining |
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John9
Old Love
United Kingdom
2154 Posts |
Posted - 30/03/2009 : 10:46:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Lizzyb
Hey that's a blast from the past.
Paul mckiernan's the guy i used to exchange letters with in around 69. He sent me a picture of a child in a toy car that I took to be his son. It was labelled Bryan and I now know that's who it was. He lived in Blackheath and I've been trying to get in touch with him for years. Sure I've mentione dthis before
fancy that
Keep on shining
An interesting connection! The same feature (In The Garden of Gethsemane)includes a much later letter from Paul McKiernan, dated 8 July 1992 ...the spelling of his name seems to have changed by that time! Apart from saying that he lives in Cheshire (where I myself live), he confesses that he lost interest in Love after the first three albums and there is no further mention of Gethsemane. Dave Housden says that he wrote back to ask for documentary evidence concerning the track listing for the lost album, but that no reply was forthcoming. Despite this Dave still seemed to believe in the album at that time largely because of a 1980 conversation between Arthur Lee and Bill Parry of 'Holding Together' magazine.
In my mind there is a direct analogy between the Gethsemane concept and Dylan's 1967 Basement Sessions - which first saw the light of day on the Great White Wonder bootleg in 1969. Although this was definitely an unofficial release, it became widely available for a short time an was seen by many fans as the true successor to Blonde On Blonde. I wonder whether it was this fascinating interlude in rock history that helped to promote the myth....or reality.... of lost albums by other artists for whose work there was also an insatiable demand.
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Edited by - John9 on 30/03/2009 10:53:58 |
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rocker
Old Love
USA
3606 Posts |
Posted - 30/03/2009 : 16:36:55
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"Lost album"...hmm..after all these years I don't know something would've had to have turned up or something, no? I don't know. Something tells me artistically FC = Gethsemane. As the writer in the Independent noted there was "acid, ennui,dislocation and alientation and a fixation with death in FC". I mean can you go any lower on the "happiness" scale?? And as Arthur tantalizingly said...They may be songs..but with different titles". Yeah, "Maybe The People Would be the Times or Between Clark and Hilldale" made way for "The Last Supper"... |
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Joe Morris
Old Love
3492 Posts |
Posted - 31/03/2009 : 02:50:34
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Well, some songs on Four Sail I understand were written earlier
but I think Gethesemene was a concept that was gonna be the follow up to FC
Maybe the last single was gonna be for the album, but it seems it didn't come off, what with Bryan wanting to go off to do the solo thing
If Arthur didn't recognize any of the tracks on the album (or Bryan) then I doubt it came off
It'd be nice if there were some unreleased stuff from the vintage (66-8) Love but I can't imagine anything further will pop up any time soon. Theres already the mono/stereo configurations of the first 2 albums, and Changes in mono never struck me (ow!) as terribly interesting (unlike the Who Sell Out, which just came out in a mono/stereo 2cd
Maybe pre Love (Its the marlin baby) would justify a cd release, but who would buy it?
Its like the Monkees Missing Links albums - its interesting sure, but whos interested in these albums? People have heard Forever Changes and Headquarters, but have people listened to Pisces Aquarius & Jones Ltd
or Vindicator? I think not..
I just can't see any "new" Love coming out any time soon.
And that includes "Pinky Pinky Pink Toes" (or is that "Pinky Pink Toes")
Judging by later years Arthur wasn't very prolific, but then he had been in prison and I'm assuming he wasn't playing much then
Maybe he recorded before being thrown in prison? I understand he wanted to do a followup to Changes then (Forever Changes Book 2 or something like that) but then he fired a shot into the air and got jail time (apparently he had torched a girlfriends porch previously, along with other offenses)
I doubt Arthur played any guitar in the joint.. |
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lemonade kid
Old Love
USA
9876 Posts |
Posted - 31/03/2009 : 16:47:45
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Ya...some mono is amazing...Magic Bus- far superior to the rechanneled stereo, etc. But FC was merely a stereo mix down so it is actually inferior to the stereo. Too bad it didn't come out a little sooner and we would have another great FC reissue disc to buy! 
____________________________________________________________
Round up the usual suspects.... |
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Lizzyb
Fifth Love
United Kingdom
470 Posts |
Posted - 02/04/2009 : 00:01:12
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J9
mcKiernan again
yes, appleton warrington Lancs, but he was in cheshire.
he moved from or to blackheat sometime.
i'd like to trace him.
maybe he had an unpleasant experience in Manchester on the 1975 tour - no that was quite a bit later wasn't it?
Keep on shining |
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Joe Morris
Old Love
3492 Posts |
Posted - 02/04/2009 : 02:32:22
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| Was the 1975 tour when Arthur was wiping the Love banner at one of his shows on his butt and insulting the audience? |
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John9
Old Love
United Kingdom
2154 Posts |
Posted - 02/04/2009 : 20:46:17
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LizzyB - an added complication is that Warrington was Lancashire but became Cheshire when they mucked about with the counties. I'm about twenty-five miles from there but I would be happy to make enquiries.
LizzyB / Joe - yes I believe that the Free Trade Hall, Manchester in 1975 was where the unfortunate incident took place. This venue was not only home to the Halle Orchestra it was also where in 1966, Dylan had been confronted with the infamous 'Judas' comment. Oh... and in 1964 I crossed its stage myself to receive a school prize...along with about thirty other kids. |
Edited by - John9 on 02/04/2009 20:52:40 |
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myoungish
Fifth Love
USA
264 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2009 : 04:14:37
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Glad you revived the Gethsemane mystery, John9! A true mystery wrapped in an enigma. Perhaps my favorite Love topic. The Castle said that three of MacLean's songs that ended up on ifyoubelievin were going to be on it (Tired Of Sitting, People, and Blues Singers). Also Lee's The Time Has Come For Some Counting To Be Done, Sixth Cents, Freeway Flyers, Peaceful Times Again, and Uptown N' Down...and then a Lee/Echols song called Sanctuary, and a Lee/MacLean song called The Outlaw.
This is enough for a 12(!) song record, when you include Your Mind and We and Laughing Stock. Were these just song titles without the music? If so, then why was each song specifically credited? Can you imagine the gorgeous and enigmatic harmonies of an Arthur n' Bryan track called The Outlaw from 1968? Or the alternately mournful and mind-melting guitars of a Lee/Echols track called Sanctuary? The mind boggles....
Michael Young |
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Joe Morris
Old Love
3492 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2009 : 15:15:10
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Don't think Bryan knew anything about Gethesemene, but then again, he was out of there pretty fast when Elektra offered him a solo career
Sadly it would take him years to actually record something on his own.. |
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Tina
Old Love
United Kingdom
678 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2009 : 20:35:49
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http://love.torbenskott.dk/tour2005/20050701_stourbridge_echols_interview.asp
When I interviewed Johnny in 2005 at Stourbridge during the tour Arthur decided not to come on, he mentioned Gethsemane. Sounds like Bryan was involved.
IMHO Johnny is the key here, the only person alive who knows what really happened. He posts here sometimes, maybe he can provide the answer. |
Edited by - Tina on 10/04/2009 20:38:13 |
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Joe Morris
Old Love
3492 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2009 : 23:19:43
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Bryan didn't recognize the song titles that he was claimed to have written though..
Last I heard Johnny was working on Gethesemene. I doubt that will ever see release though. I can't imagine theres much interest, what with Love being THE cult band. The only way to get someone into Love is to just give them the album (FC)
I wonder how the Love tour will do though. Can people still afford to go to shows here in the States? I doubt even the recent Fleetwood Mac tour did well here, and I'm giving a miss this weekend to seeing Robyn Hitchcock as I am poor
Wonder if the BB Kings show in NYC will come off - $30 is too much for me to afford, unfortunately. Apparently tickets go on sale for the August 9th show 9am Monday (12th April) |
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TJSAbass
Fourth Love
USA
139 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2009 : 00:48:24
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| I would think the guys at Rhino would jump at the chance to release Gethsemane. I'm sure there's a label somewhere that would, if you look at the amount of indie rock stuff out there. Let's not be pessimistic! |
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John9
Old Love
United Kingdom
2154 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2009 : 02:26:32
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| I think that the very name 'Gethsemane' is acquiring a similar status to that of 'Rosebud' in Orson Welles' Citizen Kane.......something that we can never know because as the 'No Trespassing' notice at both the beginning and end of the film reminds us, we are not meant to know. But then of course, it is precisely this that intensifies our wanting to know. There's part of me that hopes that Gethsemane enigma will never be resolved! |
Edited by - John9 on 11/04/2009 10:08:19 |
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Gethsemane, Again
