| Author |
 Topic  |
|
waxburn
Old Love
USA
735 Posts |
 Posted - 13/12/2010 : 22:17:05
|
[quote]Originally posted by lemonade kid
And to your question about some of the things Jac did to "control" Love, waxburn.....
Well let's see, Jac lowered parts of the vocal on Revelation, that [he] considered over the top. He changed the title of the song "Lonely Guitar" which I wrote when I was twelve, to "Emotions" and listed Arthur as co-writer, even though he was well aware that Arthur wasn't involved in any way. Jac Claimed, the title Lonely Guitar sounded too much like Herb Alperts' Lonely Bull. He maintained the mis-credit was just a mistake. The two of us never saw eye to eye.
He even tried to get Arthur to change the lyrics on Live and Let Live. Saying "Oh the Snot Has Caked Against My Pants" might offend people.
He was a very prudish man, fortunately Arthur stood his ground. -JE
And this about Arthur's rapping & more about Jac....
Arthurs "Rap" was a surprise in that it wasn't expected on that cut. We had been listening to a group called The Young Poets, who from my perspective were the first rap group. At least the first I'd ever heard.
Arthur often did what is now known as freestyle rhyming. After listening to them. He would break into rhyme, whenever he felt the notion. So [that] he would do it wasn't surprising, his choice of songs to do it on was.
As for Jac Holtzman, where do I start! His manipulation, and interference was an ongoing problem. So neither Arthur, or I were at all shocked, when he chose to edit one of our songs.
Seven and Seven is, required over fifty takes, mostly due to his, and Bruce Botnick's interference. Jac would say, you're too loud, there's too much treble, too much reverb, on and on it went. Why are you using such a loud and persistent vibrato? Now of course, he claims credit for the sound. As may be obvious, Mr. Holtzman was not one of our favorite people.
And so it goes.....JE.
"control"? who said anything about control. hes a record co exec of course hes going to try to control. that should be no surprise.
but what i asked was -what credit did Holzman take that he should not have taken. i believe i know who he took the credit from. , i have a pretty go idea of that, but WHAT did he take credit for that he didnt do? |
Edited by - waxburn on 13/12/2010 22:20:31 |
 |
|
|
waxburn
Old Love
USA
735 Posts |
Posted - 13/12/2010 : 22:18:34
|
[quote]Originally posted by lemonade kid
Michael on OJ.....
Yeah, that was my first week in the group. All I know is what Kenny told me that day... Arthur had made a deal with a guy named Barry to leave some weed in his mailbox and take the money. When Arthur got home and checked the mailbox, no weed and the money he had left in there was gone. Later he's driving past the Canyon Country store and there's Barry sitting on the rail out front laughing it up and talking with some girls, so Arthur pulled over and stopped and beat him up.
He couldn't go there any more after that. Bill the owner like eighty-sixed him.
(Q-on having to get the OJ for Arthur....)
A-No I wasn't pissed at all. I thought it was kindly funny.
I remember the concept of Arthur being limited in that one little area was somehow fascinating. Kenny could go into the store, I could go into the store, but Arthur?.... he couldn't go into the store. Not even for OJ.--MSW
Thats nice but thats not the point. Anyone in this music thing would know what the point is. |
|
|
|
LeeRob
Fifth Love
397 Posts |
Posted - 13/12/2010 : 22:30:08
|
WB, for those of us who are slow, please elaborate; 'sounds interesting.
It's all the same day. |
|
|
|
waxburn
Old Love
USA
735 Posts |
Posted - 14/12/2010 : 02:10:47
|
quote:
Originally posted by LeeRob
WB, for those of us who are slow, please elaborate; 'sounds interesting.
It's all the same day.
heres some crucial facts omitted:
(clues erased)
ok now, did anyone figure it out. 
(follow the orange juice) |
Edited by - waxburn on 14/12/2010 03:11:50 |
|
|
|
LeeRob
Fifth Love
397 Posts |
Posted - 14/12/2010 : 17:11:02
|
AHA!
No.
It's all the same day. |
|
|
|
lemonade kid
Old Love
USA
9873 Posts |
Posted - 14/12/2010 : 18:41:05
|
About FOREVER CHANGES final form we all know and love
and how it got there....from Johnny at Freed's...
It seems that Botnik was not a Love favorite...and that Rothchild had more empathy for Love's sound....according to what we have read. But there is no denying that Forever Changes is a high watermark...the highest; with credits going to Botnik!
Was Rothchild involved at all on FC?... it lists Botnik for all the production, with Jac "supervising", & David Angel as arranger---Jac said he placed the tracks in the order they are in...I can't find your previous post on that.
Of the three, it seems that David Angel was most responsible for the "sound" on FC...
Michael & Johnny--Your thoughts please?![/quote]
Of course Arthur Lee receives, and deserves the lions share of credit for Forever Changes. Without his poignant, and riveting lyrics, combined with his relentless, and excellent stewardship, there would have been no record. Add [all] of the group members, each of whom.... though fighting their own personal demons. Stepped outside themselves, too experiment, invent, create, and play, music that was absolutely essential to the creation of this record.
Next there is David Angel, who really listened to the tracks, and developed brass, and string parts, that fit seamlessly into the music already played by the group. He also presented ideas, that brought out the best of each song, especially Alone again, and Old man.
And then we have Paul Rothschild, who took a hodgepodge of tapes, recorded under less than ideal circumstances. He mastered them, sequenced them, and turned them into an album of songs that have become timeless.
Finally we have Bruce Botnick and Jac Holtzman. From my perspective Bruce was more of a hindrance, than a "producer". He didn't understand the project from the beginning, and most, if not all of the technical problems, can be traced directly to him. Arthur felt the same way, and expressed his feelings most eloquently in his book. Too bad the lawyers had the last word. As for Jac Holtzman, he owned Elektra records. "Nuff said!"
The fascinating thing here, is [all] of the players, and all of the drama, conspired with serendipity, to create this Magnum Opus. The Masterpiece that is Forever Changes. In this instance the Whole, is by far greater than the sum of the parts. JE.
Postscript: On further consideration, Jac Holtzman may have been involved in the sequencing of Forever Changes. Since it was done in New York, and I wasn't there, it is only fair that I take him at his word! JE.
On GOOD HUMOR MAN ending.....
That was one of the technical problems I mentioned. On that particular mix, there were serious drop-outs on the tape. They could have chosen to go back and remix, or try and "finesse" the one that sounded better as a whole. Bruce decided to manipulate the track. At the time, I didn't like it, I thought it sounded contrived, and affected. But over time, I've come to believe it reflected the philosophy of the times. JE
It is interesting, Johnny, that Rothchild gets no credit for anything on the jacket of FC considering his important contribution....
I'm not sure what was happening with Paul and Jac at that time. I kept a room at the Landmark motel, and so did Rothschild. We often sat around the pool and chatted. We discussed his work on Forever Changes... back in New York. And he would tell me how screwed-up the tapes were, and how much work it took to fix them. I do know that without him, the record wouldn't sound as good as it does.
Back then mastering engineers, were not nearly the "superstars" they are today. They were paid for the gig, just as studio musicians were. Most recordings made nowadays, are done in project studios, or at home. So the mastering engineer is indispensable, in making it sound like a record.
For those who don't know what a "mastering engineer" does I'll give you a brief description. They are the ones who sequence the songs (determining their order) and remove any noise, leftover from the mixdown. They do the fade ins, and fade outs, add equalization, compression, and sometimes a bit of reverb. These invaluable artists, are the ones who make recordings that are produced at different studios, sound as if they were done in the same space. They are usually the last chance one has to "fix it" before it goes out to be made into records. JE.
Thanks Johnny and Ed for this one!
_____________________________________________
Letting your freak flag fly is a state of mind,
not a fashion statement.
-lk |
Edited by - lemonade kid on 14/12/2010 18:45:23 |
|
|
|
rocker
Old Love
USA
3606 Posts |
Posted - 14/12/2010 : 21:23:45
|
The fascinating thing here, is [all] of the players, and all of the drama, conspired with serendipity, to create this Magnum Opus. The Masterpiece that is Forever Changes. In this instance the Whole, is by far greater than the sum of the parts. JE.
Right on target and well said. And that's how I saw it. A great musical enterprise that's few and far far between. Thanks very much JE. I don't know if the band thought they were making a "masterpiece" but it's funny how things turn out that way. You guys were ridin' the clouds and you didn't even know it. |
|
|
|
waxburn
Old Love
USA
735 Posts |
Posted - 15/12/2010 : 01:17:34
|
quote:
Originally posted by LeeRob
WB, for those of us who are slow, please elaborate; 'sounds interesting.
It's all the same day.
Think OJ. Why not beer? |
|
|
|
waxburn
Old Love
USA
735 Posts |
Posted - 15/12/2010 : 01:19:44
|
quote:
Originally posted by lemonade kid
About FOREVER CHANGES final form we all know and love
and how it got there....from Johnny at Freed's...
It seems that Botnik was not a Love favorite...and that Rothchild had more empathy for Love's sound....according to what we have read. But there is no denying that Forever Changes is a high watermark...the highest; with credits going to Botnik!
Was Rothchild involved at all on FC?... it lists Botnik for all the production, with Jac "supervising", & David Angel as arranger---Jac said he placed the tracks in the order they are in...I can't find your previous post on that.
Of the three, it seems that David Angel was most responsible for the "sound" on FC...
Michael & Johnny--Your thoughts please?!
Of course Arthur Lee receives, and deserves the lions share of credit for Forever Changes. Without his poignant, and riveting lyrics, combined with his relentless, and excellent stewardship, there would have been no record. Add [all] of the group members, each of whom.... though fighting their own personal demons. Stepped outside themselves, too experiment, invent, create, and play, music that was absolutely essential to the creation of this record.
Next there is David Angel, who really listened to the tracks, and developed brass, and string parts, that fit seamlessly into the music already played by the group. He also presented ideas, that brought out the best of each song, especially Alone again, and Old man.
And then we have Paul Rothschild, who took a hodgepodge of tapes, recorded under less than ideal circumstances. He mastered them, sequenced them, and turned them into an album of songs that have become timeless.
Finally we have Bruce Botnick and Jac Holtzman. From my perspective Bruce was more of a hindrance, than a "producer". He didn't understand the project from the beginning, and most, if not all of the technical problems, can be traced directly to him. Arthur felt the same way, and expressed his feelings most eloquently in his book. Too bad the lawyers had the last word. As for Jac Holtzman, he owned Elektra records. "Nuff said!"
The fascinating thing here, is [all] of the players, and all of the drama, conspired with serendipity, to create this Magnum Opus. The Masterpiece that is Forever Changes. In this instance the Whole, is by far greater than the sum of the parts. JE.
Postscript: On further consideration, Jac Holtzman may have been involved in the sequencing of Forever Changes. Since it was done in New York, and I wasn't there, it is only fair that I take him at his word! JE.
On GOOD HUMOR MAN ending.....
That was one of the technical problems I mentioned. On that particular mix, there were serious drop-outs on the tape. They could have chosen to go back and remix, or try and "finesse" the one that sounded better as a whole. Bruce decided to manipulate the track. At the time, I didn't like it, I thought it sounded contrived, and affected. But over time, I've come to believe it reflected the philosophy of the times. JE
It is interesting, Johnny, that Rothchild gets no credit for anything on the jacket of FC considering his important contribution....
I'm not sure what was happening with Paul and Jac at that time. I kept a room at the Landmark motel, and so did Rothschild. We often sat around the pool and chatted. We discussed his work on Forever Changes... back in New York. And he would tell me how screwed-up the tapes were, and how much work it took to fix them. I do know that without him, the record wouldn't sound as good as it does.
Back then mastering engineers, were not nearly the "superstars" they are today. They were paid for the gig, just as studio musicians were. Most recordings made nowadays, are done in project studios, or at home. So the mastering engineer is indispensable, in making it sound like a record.
For those who don't know what a "mastering engineer" does I'll give you a brief description. They are the ones who sequence the songs (determining their order) and remove any noise, leftover from the mixdown. They do the fade ins, and fade outs, add equalization, compression, and sometimes a bit of reverb. These invaluable artists, are the ones who make recordings that are produced at different studios, sound as if they were done in the same space. They are usually the last chance one has to "fix it" before it goes out to be made into records. JE.
Thanks Johnny and Ed for this one!
_____________________________________________
Letting your freak flag fly is a state of mind,
not a fashion statement.
-lk
[/quote]
Paul Rothschild mastered Forever Changes!!!!?? |
|
|
|
lemonade kid
Old Love
USA
9873 Posts |
Posted - 15/12/2010 : 01:21:44
|
Not something Botnik would want us to know...but the engineer rarely got credit back then.
_____________________________________________
Letting your freak flag fly is a state of mind,
not a fashion statement.
-lk |
|
|
|
waxburn
Old Love
USA
735 Posts |
Posted - 15/12/2010 : 01:47:30
|
quote:
Originally posted by lemonade kid
Not something Botnik would want us to know...but the engineer rarely got credit back then.
_____________________________________________
Letting your freak flag fly is a state of mind,
not a fashion statement.
-lk
Who mastered DA CAPO? Hassinger engineered and Rothschild produced.
 He produced Da Capo but mastered FC?
It seems to me that Rothschild would have received credit on the album had he mastered the album, or he would not have mastered.
Wasnt Rothschild the hottest producer of the time with the Doors albums??? He resorted to mastering FC without credit? the only way i think he would have done would have been as a favor.
Would love to have Botnick commentary on this. |
|
|
|
waxburn
Old Love
USA
735 Posts |
Posted - 15/12/2010 : 03:59:57
|
quote:
Originally posted by lemonade kid
Not something Botnik would want us to know...but the engineer rarely got credit back then.
_____________________________________________
Letting your freak flag fly is a state of mind,
not a fashion statement.
-lk
Mastering is basically eq ing the material so it sounds together, much like JE said, but mastering does not include sequencing. Bob Ludwig masters but he doesnt sequence, the artist or the record label sequences. Nowadays with the pro tools etc
everyone can master no need for those glass discs anymore, all that is fading away, slowly but surely with the rest of the music business.
I dont see why Botnick would care if someone else mastered, its really a minor credit, few would understand what it means. He received a Producer credit which is what is important. |
|
|
|
rocker
Old Love
USA
3606 Posts |
Posted - 15/12/2010 : 14:38:42
|
| I don't know what's up with this but who is "Zal Schreiber?" The names's listed under "Mastering" for FC on Wiki. |
|
|
|
waxburn
Old Love
USA
735 Posts |
Posted - 15/12/2010 : 15:28:08
|
quote:
Originally posted by rocker
I don't know what's up with this but who is "Zal Schreiber?" The names's listed under "Mastering" for FC on Wiki.
He mastered FC, or at least we thought he did. Until now.
Personally i find the idea that Paul Rothschild who produced Da Capo but didnt master it, would not produce FC but would master it, very very very iffy.
I may be wrong, and maybe someone can correct me, but i dont recall Rothschild ever mastering anything.
Maybe Zal is still around, and can be queried on the matter. |
Edited by - waxburn on 15/12/2010 15:28:51 |
|
|
|
Joe Morris
Old Love
3491 Posts |
Posted - 15/12/2010 : 16:08:17
|
anyone ask Johnny whether hes read Michaels book?
shame the questionnaire isn't on this page (a Love page)
Oh, Well (Peter Green)
One assumes Johnny didn't like Snoopy (along with the rest of the band, aside from Arthur!)
No Christmas cards in Snoops mailbox then this year! |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Michael & Johnny Q&A at Freed's
