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rocker
Old Love
USA
3606 Posts |
 Posted - 10/12/2008 : 14:57:55
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| caryne....Yes, we will see how the election of Obama will perhaps affect Cubans and their families who have, in some cases, been split up because of political allegiances. From my own personal point of view, if we're talking about "freedom" I'm afraid Cuba under Castro gets an "F". It has been apparent all throught these years that he and the United States do not how can we say it "mix". Two barking dogs that's all they are. Intransigent in their views. Not sure what Obama is thinking but maybe just maybe he may engender a change there with his diplomacy. We'll see won't we? And if he plays his cards right he should send a Christmas card to Raoul..... |
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John E
Fifth Love
United Kingdom
322 Posts |
Posted - 27/12/2008 : 00:54:04
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Belated congratulations, Caryne! I've only just returned to the board, after a long absence.
Love, John E |
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caryne
Old Love
United Kingdom
1520 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2009 : 14:04:49
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Thanks John E for your congratulations. I too have just returned after an absence and read your message. Lovely to hear from you again.
As for Rocker's comments on Cuba, well, the place isn't perfect but, given the choice, I'd prefer to live there than the USA anyday. Free healthcare, education etc, etc is something the so called 'free' countries of the world know nothing about. Yep, there is corruption in Cuba (sadly there is everywhere) but everyone gets food, housing etc and to me that's what's important. When people lost their homes in the hurricane last year they were all given help/land/materials etc to buld new ones, I didn't see that happening in the USA!!! |
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rocker
Old Love
USA
3606 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2009 : 14:23:51
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| caryne...I understand your point of view and its evident that our past colors how we see the US-Cuban problem. My views on Cuba are colored by history especially communism in Europe. I hope that perhaps the rancor that has been part of the US/Cuba relationship can be retired in the coming years. We'll see if the two coutnries can take the best of what each country has to offer and forge a new and better relationship. |
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lemonade kid
Old Love
USA
9873 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2009 : 05:10:06
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Steps seem to be on the way but it will be rough....bad sentiment, however just or unjust are hard to change......hope things change for the better, finally.
____________________________________________________________
Never run from anything immortal. It attracts their attention. |
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rocker
Old Love
USA
3606 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2009 : 13:57:22
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| ..and as we saw that "Wall" fell so things have a chance of being changed!... |
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caryne
Old Love
United Kingdom
1520 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2009 : 20:46:58
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| rocker... this isn't really the place but there has never been (except for perhaps a short time after the 1917 Russian Revolution) any 'Communism' in Europe. All we have ever had is state capitalism which is in no way the same thing. I am not sure what your understanding of 'communism' is but it is something that will never work until it is international. Trotsky believed this and for this, and other 'thoughts' he was murdered on Stalin's orders. True communism is not about 'state control' but about everyone having an equal voice and being treated equally. This does not happen brilliantly in Cuba, I must admit, but there is certainly a hell of a lot more equality there than in most countries in the west where the rich hold all the power and control. Hardly freedom in my eyes. |
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John9
Old Love
United Kingdom
2154 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2009 : 23:40:56
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| "From each according to his abilities to each according to his needs" - in its most perfect form, Communism is a truly noble ideal. There would be no private property or money and therefore no greed or exploitation. But its belief in its own perfection means that no one can ever be allowed to question what is going on. Inevitably you end up with a small elite, rather like Plato's Guardians, who are the only ones who are blessed with knowing "the truth" - a truth that can never be challenged. Lenin, like Robespierre before him, was a man driven by high ideals - but also like his predecessor, he was so obsessed with them that he was prepared to sacrifice large numbers of potential opponents for some wider notion of the 'greater good'. The fact that Communism has never really worked anywhere I think is down to humanity's instinct for diversity and individuality. I think that Rocker is right about the Berlin Wall. The people who were clambering over it back in 1989 were not demanding a purer form of Communism - they were wanting to embrace western democracy....even with all its many failings. |
Edited by - John9 on 09/07/2009 00:05:37 |
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rocker
Old Love
USA
3606 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2009 : 14:15:50
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caryne...
In the history of the 20th century communistic regimes or state capitalism as you described it are responsible for the repression of humanity. For some reason and john9 alludes it, it goes off the rails in its quest for an ideal. Tell me why is its modus operandi have bloodshed, murder, killing and alust for pure POWER? If you heavne't try to read Tom Stoppard's play "Rock'n Roll". When you have the might of a state crawling on your back you can understand why a record collection of all things gets destroyed. And it's understandable in a repressive state since records are a symbol of freedom and thought. Also, bands get thrown in prison because they
write songs that don't agree with the STATE. I note you live in the UK. A great country. I admire your idealism but I'm sure would be put to the test if you would have to live in one of those kinds of countries. I personally have seen the face of communism (or your state capitalism) and I won't quibble so far its been a disaster. Russia' experiment? A failure and it has affected their whole society. They trust no one.
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caryne
Old Love
United Kingdom
1520 Posts |
Posted - 14/07/2009 : 22:39:09
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Rocker.... I've long ago given up trying to argue about what communism really is with people who have, sadly, been brought up to believe that it is 'the ultimate evil' (ie an awful lot of Americans). I've even had problems with many americans even accepting socialism so I guess I should have known better than even mention it here (like I said in an earlier post, it's not the place). Luckily, I do not believe that the human race is basically self-centered, selfish and greedy (which is what capitalism presumes) and I still have some hope for the human race.
Capitalism has got the west where it is now (in the s*it). Trotsky said long ago that communism would never work it it was tried in individual states (the capitalist world simply would not allow it) and only international communism would ever work...sadly we havn't yet had that but, like I said, I live in hope for the future.
Yes, people will be tempted to believe that the grass is greener somewhere else but, like many ex-Soviets discovered after the fall of their system, the West wasn't all it was cracked up to be and now the former Soviet States are largely corrupt and run by gangsters and criminals. I recall hearing a poor Russian women on a TV programme commenting 'Even under Stalin we had bread' (there was little for her now). As I've already said, the Soviet Union was NOT a communist state, I don't call it 'state capitalism' that is what it was.
I'm no expert but, after visiting Cuba all I can say is I know where I would rather live and it certainly isn't the USA.
I wouldn't normally recommend 'wikipedia' (it's full of errors) but it's description of 'state capitalism' is as good as any and will lead you, to understand that it is not just a term I am making up!!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_Capitalism |
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caryne
Old Love
United Kingdom
1520 Posts |
Posted - 14/07/2009 : 22:44:40
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quote:
Originally posted by rocker
caryne...
In the history of the 20th century communistic regimes or state capitalism as you described it are responsible for the repression of humanity. For some reason and john9 alludes it, it goes off the rails in its quest for an ideal. Tell me why is its modus operandi have bloodshed, murder, killing and alust for pure POWER? If you heavne't try to read Tom Stoppard's play "Rock'n Roll". When you have the might of a state crawling on your back you can understand why a record collection of all things gets destroyed. And it's understandable in a repressive state since records are a symbol of freedom and thought. Also, bands get thrown in prison because they
write songs that don't agree with the STATE. I note you live in the UK. A great country. I admire your idealism but I'm sure would be put to the test if you would have to live in one of those kinds of countries. I personally have seen the face of communism (or your state capitalism) and I won't quibble so far its been a disaster. Russia' experiment? A failure and it has affected their whole society. They trust no one.
PS Are you seriously trying to tell me that people are allowed freedom of thought and expression in the west?? Oh, come on, it's easier to be a criminal in the USA than call yourself a communist/socialist. The USA may not have the ridiculous 'reds under the bed' scare of the 1950's any more but I know, that to be an out and out communist in the USA is nearly as bad as being a murderer and those who are are constanly under surveillance. Don't kid yourself, freedom of thought/expression is only truly allowed in the west if it doesn't contradict the status quo..it's more subtle than it was in the former 'Soviet States' but it's there all the same. |
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John9
Old Love
United Kingdom
2154 Posts |
Posted - 15/07/2009 : 00:40:40
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| Caryne - I actually believe that do we have freedom of thought in the West. I know that it can be subverted by any number of influences - the media, the morphia of 'reality television', commercial pressures and powerful interests driven by greed or corruption. And how do we combat these? By keeping our vigilence and independent thought razor sharp. Whatever other complaints people may have about western democracy, it does allow us to do precisely that....provided we want to do it. I think that one of the most important books to emerge from the 20th Century was The Open Society And Its Enemies by Karl Popper. He makes the case that the utopias offered by Plato and Marx actually rest on profound illogicalities and therefore either will never come into being in the first place...or else will never function properly. He says that the best societies are the ones that are openly and continually asking questions about how things can be run more effectively. Communism even in its most perfect form, can never allow that to happen - because it believes that it already has all the answers. In this sense, there is almost something fundamentalist about it. |
Edited by - John9 on 15/07/2009 00:52:04 |
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lemonade kid
Old Love
USA
9873 Posts |
Posted - 15/07/2009 : 06:19:20
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Ya...... what you said, John9!!
____________________________________________________________
Never run from anything immortal. It attracts their attention. |
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rocker
Old Love
USA
3606 Posts |
Posted - 15/07/2009 : 14:41:36
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"Are you seriously trying to tell me that people are allowed freedom of thought and expression in the west?"
Seriously.....yes. In contrast and as an example, the Soviets are still mired in censorshp and control over their population. Media outlets are pretty restricted in what they can present. Again, it's the might of the state that calls the shots there. Putin's so-called "democrac"y is a sham, a head fake. Historically autocratic governments are loath to give up their "perks". Life in Russia today is still "under the boot".
And just a comment on the concept of "freedom". I brought up Stoppard's play because it points intrinsically to how music represents all that is good in man yet the state apparently feared it so much that it persecuted those who would enjoy it. "Rock" in that case was revolution. Just the act of listening was a poke at the state. And I'd think Arthur also knew about "freedom". He knew that "we're all normal and we want our freedom". He sung those lines a few times. I know he just wanted everybody to make sure we got the important message. |
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rocker
Old Love
USA
3606 Posts |
Posted - 15/07/2009 : 15:21:57
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caryne...."Living in the US"...
I know you've been to Cuba but have you been here? It's a nice place to live. You can get a cup of coffee... Maybe you might change about my country if you haven't visited.
I've been to the UK. I could live there in a heartbeat. I have not been to Cuba so I need to reserve judgment. I like it here of course it's my home. But I'm going to refrain from saying that I absolutely would not live in Cuba. If I went well I'd love to be surprised though I think initially I'd see it from a restricted tourist point of view and from my life expereince. I believe one has to actually live day by day as a resident in a country to understand one's place in it. That would be the true test. I know you liked Cuba though your view is biased since you're already in the camp of "non-US type" government. With me, I'm not. So there's a challenge there! If I go I'll certainly give you a report (biased too)... |
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Congratulations to Caryne and Dave.....
