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stewart
Old Love
United Kingdom
568 Posts |
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stewart
Old Love
United Kingdom
568 Posts |
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stewart
Old Love
United Kingdom
568 Posts |
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stewart
Old Love
United Kingdom
568 Posts |
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John9
Old Love
United Kingdom
2154 Posts |
 Posted - 10/04/2013 : 23:25:50
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And, in the interest of balance - a remarkably nuanced assessment from Falklands War veteran Simon Weston:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btF8YS9mHO4
It is less than five minutes long - and during the middle, he is very critical of what Margaret Thatcher did to the mining industry in his native South Wales.
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Edited by - John9 on 11/04/2013 01:05:04 |
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DaveyTee
Fourth Love
United Kingdom
238 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2013 : 09:59:27
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I think he basically makes the fact that Thatcher was a great war leader, and I don't think I would argue too much with that. Unlike some other critics, I fully supported (and still support) her actions over the Falklands crisis, and believe that in taking decisive military action in a situation where British interests were directly involved, she was doing the right thing. That is in marked contrast to the actions of subsequent leaders in getting us needlessly involved in military action in Afghanistan and Iraq.
Having said that, great wartime leaders do not necessarily make great peacetime leaders - Winston Churchill was perhaps an example of that. Where Thatcher's undoubted strength and single mindedness worked in her favour over the Falklands issue, it worked neither in her favour nor the country's in peacetime.
DT
But I Can't Understand
Why We Let Someone Else
Rule Our Land
Cap in Hand. |
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John9
Old Love
United Kingdom
2154 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2013 : 10:18:56
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I think that there is a large measure of agreement between us there, DaveyTee - cheers.
And you're right about Churchill...he definitely wasn't the man to lead us through post- war recovery. There is a new film out from radical director Ken Loach called Spirit of 45. It is a documentary with plenty of fascinating archive footage and it it centres on the sense of idealism that seemed to be helping to forge a new society during the late 40s. Near the beginning Tony Benn says to the camera:
"The idea was that if you can have full employment fighting the Germans then why can't you have full employment in a battle against poverty and ill health" |
Edited by - John9 on 11/04/2013 16:49:15 |
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rocker
Old Love
USA
3606 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2013 : 16:01:00
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| Well I'd just like to know from our fellow Uk'ers here. So what hath Thatcher wrought....for today in your 'sceptered isle'? I understand that to some it is no longer 'sceptered'. Am I wrong thinking you guys are probably even more 'separated' when it comes classes nowadays? Really both countires, the US and Britain (I'll add the Irish too!) have trod the same path to almost ruin. We're going to be paying for it for quite a while my sons. |
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John9
Old Love
United Kingdom
2154 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2013 : 16:25:49
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Well, Rocker - it is very difficult to answer that definitively. I suppose that it depends in part on who you are and how well or badly you've fared in post 1970s Britain. As for the debt, there'll be no end to ours until we we begin to return to economic growth again...you're seeing the start of that aren't you in the US...despite nearly going over the fiscal cliff in January! The way in which political parties always seem to blame each other for our ills sometimes fills me despair. Until that is, I remember what Churchill said about Democracy being the worst possible form of government................apart from all the alternatives!
I'm not sure as to whether our isle is still sceptered or not.....or set in a silver sea. And as for being This other Eden.....well! But I must admit, I wouldn't want to live anywhere else. With its wonderful diversity, sense of toleration and history, together with its gloriously unpredictable weather, I'm still glad that it's my home.  |
Edited by - John9 on 11/04/2013 16:51:12 |
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stewart
Old Love
United Kingdom
568 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2013 : 20:46:14
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quote:
Originally posted by John9
And, in the interest of balance - a remarkably nuanced assessment from Falklands War veteran Simon Weston:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btF8YS9mHO4
It is less than five minutes long - and during the middle, he is very critical of what Margaret Thatcher did to the mining industry in his native South Wales.
His comments on the Falklands are incredibly naive or very selective. No mention of the defence cutbacks that effectively gave Galtieri a green light to invade in the first place, nor of the shameful Belgrano sinking and the lies Thatcher told about both that and the Peruvian Peace Plan which would have saved lives and injuries |
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John9
Old Love
United Kingdom
2154 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2013 : 22:08:33
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Perhaps Simon Weston's comments are selective......though I suppose no more than Glenda Jackson's. But as for "incredibly nieve" - I really would hesitate to call the views of someone who actually went down there and paid such a heavy price for his courage something like that.
As for the Belgrano - well that remains a highly contentious issue. Not least because of The Sun's deeply offensive and upsetting Gotcha headline. And even now I think of the suffering that the young Argentines onboard must have endured - and of the loved ones who grieved for them. But ten years ago the captain of the Belgrano said that his ship's westward course had been only temporary - and that his orders had been to attack any British ships within range. And of course it is important to remember that our task force was still at sea and therefore highly vulnerable. On the previous day it had been attacked by Mirage jets and Argentine warships were starting a pincer movement against it. With the lives of 28,000 troops at stake, I for one would not like to have been faced with a decision like that. |
Edited by - John9 on 11/04/2013 22:59:07 |
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DaveyTee
Fourth Love
United Kingdom
238 Posts |
Posted - 12/04/2013 : 01:31:41
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quote:
Originally posted by stewart
His comments on the Falklands are incredibly naive or very selective. No mention of the defence cutbacks that effectively gave Galtieri a green light to invade in the first place..........
And no mention from you, Stewart, that the whole war only happened because a right-wing Argentinian military junta which had an appalling human rights record tried to divert public attention away from the country's economic problems and bolster its dwindling popularity by invading a British Sovereign Territory inhabited by British subjects. If you don't agree with what Thatcher did, what would you have had the British do in these circumstances?
DT
But I Can't Understand
Why We Let Someone Else
Rule Our Land
Cap in Hand. |
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rocker
Old Love
USA
3606 Posts |
Posted - 12/04/2013 : 16:53:53
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| And just a comemnt on 'Britain today'...I see that in a barometer of 'well-being' (called the Social Progress Index) which measures countries on benchmarks such as nutrition, medical care and access to higher education, Britain is actually almost at the 'top'o'the pops' coming in number two right behind Sweden in that gauge of so-called 'well-being'. The US ranks six. And you really don't want to be in Nigeria or Ethiopia which ranks at the very bottom. Supposedly this doesn't inlclude 'economic' indicators, uie.e how much you make, how much you have saved etc. It's another look at a country's prosperity outside of GDP. |
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stewart
Old Love
United Kingdom
568 Posts |
Posted - 12/04/2013 : 18:18:04
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John 9 - I feel really sorry for Simon and full of admiration for the way he has dealt with his disfigurement and the charitable work he does, but just because he was an individual victim of the conflict does endow him any more credibility about the politics of the conflict. Diplomacy could have prevented and later found a solution to the conflict but Thatcher was not prepared to go down that road of jaw-jaw is better than war-war. The Belgrano was sank for domestic political reasons and Thatcher's famous avoidance of answering questions about it spoke volumes
DaveyTee- The war was nothing to do with human rights. Thatcher had failed to properly protect the Falklands and then failed to enter into a diplomatic solution with Galtieri who you think she would have got on with very well but perhaps his human rights record was not quite bad enough compared to that of her pal Pinochet, the butcher of Chile, who gave tactical support to the UK during the Falklands |
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stewart
Old Love
United Kingdom
568 Posts |
Posted - 12/04/2013 : 20:18:16
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quote:
Originally posted by rocker
And just a comemnt on 'Britain today'...I see that in a barometer of 'well-being' (called the Social Progress Index) which measures countries on benchmarks such as nutrition, medical care and access to higher education, Britain is actually almost at the 'top'o'the pops' coming in number two right behind Sweden in that gauge of so-called 'well-being'. The US ranks six. And you really don't want to be in Nigeria or Ethiopia which ranks at the very bottom. Supposedly this doesn't inlclude 'economic' indicators, uie.e how much you make, how much you have saved etc. It's another look at a country's prosperity outside of GDP.
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Condolences to UK - Thatcher dies at 87
