| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Tina |
Posted - 14/11/2008 : 07:40:06
Getting married today!! Caryne has been a real advocate of Love over the years and is one of the leading lights of this board, great to see her own "Love Story" working out so happily.
Have a lovely day and a great time in Cuba. |
| 15 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| caryne |
Posted - 17/07/2009 : 19:41:24
quote:
Originally posted by markk
I know this debate is over (at least for some), but for those of you who have never been to the US and obviously never voted, there is always a socialist party candidate for the highest office, US President, which you can click on and cast your ballot. Political Freedom
Of course, and how much publicty does the media etc give him/her? |
| markk |
Posted - 17/07/2009 : 19:30:06
I know this debate is over (at least for some), but for those of you who have never been to the US and obviously never voted, there is always a socialist party candidate for the highest office, US President, which you can click on and cast your ballot. Political Freedom |
| caryne |
Posted - 17/07/2009 : 12:57:01
Social Democracy is, obviously,preferable to an 'everyone for themselves' out and out capitalist system. Any system that taxes the 'haves' to help pay for the 'haves not' is an improvement for me. However where, for me, it falls down is it's a system that still has the 'haves and have nots'. It's a case of believing that the 'poor will always be with us' instead of doing anything to change the situation by a fair distribution of wealth and power. Like I said, it's better but I see it more as a stepping stone towards socialism rather than an end in itself.
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| lemonade kid |
Posted - 16/07/2009 : 15:21:33
quote:
Originally posted by rocker
"Scandanavian style social democracy"...
john9..You know because what's been happening in the global economy I've been intrigued by that form of setup your brought up. From what I can gather, it seems to work there in those countries. It's definite that individuals there don't mind the high tax rates to get the benefits. I see the Netherlands has that as well. Any criticism of it from the population? All in all, its evident each economic system has its tradeoffs.
Communism, socialism, democracy...all noble ideals and all have as yet to be realized even in their basest forms. I also profess to Scandanavian style social democrcy....an ideal mix of social responsibility and individual freedom.
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Never run from anything immortal. It attracts their attention. |
| rocker |
Posted - 16/07/2009 : 14:26:44
"Scandanavian style social democracy"...
john9..You know because what's been happening in the global economy I've been intrigued by that form of setup your brought up. From what I can gather, it seems to work there in those countries. It's definite that individuals there don't mind the high tax rates to get the benefits. I see the Netherlands has that as well. Any criticism of it from the population? All in all, its evident each economic system has its tradeoffs. |
| caryne |
Posted - 16/07/2009 : 13:00:42
quote:
Originally posted by John9
Caryne - my point was to do with what you said about "people who have been brought up to believe that communism is the ultimate evil". If it is not a summation, then it is certainly an unfortunate caricature. I can only repeat that it in its purest form, communism is a highly noble ideal and it would be totally unfair to try to use the pre 1991 Soviet style regimes in Europe a means for gauging its worth. Trotsky as you have said, was a man of high principle - and of course he was also a superb strategist. Without him it is doubtful whether the November Revolution would have proceeded as smoothly and efficiently as it did...and more to the point, the fledgling Bolshevik regime in Moscow would never have survived the Civil War had it not been for his remarkable talent for organising people, resources and armies. The problem is that at the end of it all, Trotsky was still a member of a small but powerful elite....and although he like Lenin, had a vision for transforming the lives of ordinary people, already forces had been unleashed that would produce a monster like Stalin. The fault is most definitely not in the communist ideal - it is more the nature of humanity. All we can do is to try to build or improve systems which both derive the best from the human spirit and curb its worst excesses. To this end, I am quite attracted to the notion of Scandinavian style social democracy.
It may be a caricature but, I've yet to meet any American who hasn't admitted that it's hard to call yourself even a 'socialist' let alone a 'communist' in that country and not be, at least, ridiculed if not much more. I have corresponded with many American socialists/communists and all say that to admit to it is tantamount to saying you are a 'devil worshipper'!!
Anyway, John, I am relieved that you, at least, realise that the system in the former Soviet states was not true communism (if only others understood like you do) but, unlike you, I do have more faith in human nature and hope that, one day, we will all live in a world of equality and fairness. |
| John9 |
Posted - 16/07/2009 : 11:26:59
Caryne - my point was to do with what you said about "people who have been brought up to believe that communism is the ultimate evil". If it is not a summation, then it is certainly an unfortunate caricature. I can only repeat that it in its purest form, communism is a highly noble ideal and it would be totally unfair to try to use the pre 1991 Soviet style regimes in Europe a means for gauging its worth. Trotsky as you have said, was a man of high principle - and of course he was also a superb strategist. Without him it is doubtful whether the November Revolution would have proceeded as smoothly and efficiently as it did...and more to the point, the fledgling Bolshevik regime in Moscow would never have survived the Civil War had it not been for his remarkable talent for organising people, resources and armies. The problem is that at the end of it all, Trotsky was still a member of a small but powerful elite....and although he like Lenin, had a vision for transforming the lives of ordinary people, already forces had been unleashed that would produce a monster like Stalin. The fault is most definitely not in the communist ideal - it is more the nature of humanity. All we can do is to try to build or improve systems which both derive the best from the human spirit and curb its worst excesses. To this end, I am quite attracted to the notion of Scandinavian style social democracy. |
| lemonade kid |
Posted - 16/07/2009 : 02:01:31
 You're right...best to end this one.....
Cheers, Caryne!
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Never run from anything immortal. It attracts their attention. |
| caryne |
Posted - 16/07/2009 : 00:10:00
quote:
Originally posted by rocker
I kind of agree with this quote from a famous economist:
"History suggests that capitalism is a necessary condition for political freedom".
I'd think based on its history that if communism makes a resurgence there's only one way that it will appear and it will be by force not by choice. That's my take.
Thanks from my end in this exchange of opinions.
Enlightening on how we all think on things.
'Political Freedom'??? You can believe what you like (and I really do feel I am wasting my time in this) but can you explain why, if the USA believes in 'political freedom' it has treated a tiny country with no power at all like a pariah state for fifty years? Why, until very recently, most American citizens were not even allowed to travel to that country and why it has spent years 'fighting communism' (often by very dubious means) in many other countries of the world?
Yeah, political freedom if you happen to go along with what the USA government thinks... how is that so different to what happened in the Soviet Countries, China etc, etc?
I really did want to end this here but that comment about capitalism allowing 'political freedom' would be laughable if it wasn't so ridiculous. |
| caryne |
Posted - 16/07/2009 : 00:02:54
quote:
Originally posted by John9
quote:
Originally posted by caryne
I just don't think anything is to be achieved by trying to argue in favour of communism/socialism on here with people who have been, sadly, brought up to believe it is the 'ultimate evil'.
Hardly an accurate summation!
It was a 'summation', just a statement of how I feel, not the same thing at all. |
| caryne |
Posted - 16/07/2009 : 00:01:08
quote:
Originally posted by lemonade kid
quote:
Originally posted by caryne
I just don't think anything is to be achieved by trying to argue in favour of communism/socialism on here with people who have been, sadly, brought up to believe it is the 'ultimate evil'.
.....and vise versa.
No debate here...just putting forth of firm beliefs and life styles.
So I agree, debate over.
____________________________________________________________
Never run from anything immortal. It attracts their attention.
The difference being though, lk, I was not brought up to believe that the USA (or capitalism itself) was evil. I've worked that out for myself. So, not 'vice-versa'. |
| rocker |
Posted - 15/07/2009 : 21:59:45
I kind of agree with this quote from a famous economist:
"History suggests that capitalism is a necessary condition for political freedom".
I'd think based on its history that if communism makes a resurgence there's only one way that it will appear and it will be by force not by choice. That's my take.
Thanks from my end in this exchange of opinions.
Enlightening on how we all think on things. |
| John9 |
Posted - 15/07/2009 : 20:45:25
quote:
Originally posted by caryne
I just don't think anything is to be achieved by trying to argue in favour of communism/socialism on here with people who have been, sadly, brought up to believe it is the 'ultimate evil'.
Hardly an accurate summation! |
| lemonade kid |
Posted - 15/07/2009 : 18:22:55
quote:
Originally posted by caryne
I just don't think anything is to be achieved by trying to argue in favour of communism/socialism on here with people who have been, sadly, brought up to believe it is the 'ultimate evil'.
.....and vise versa.
No debate here...just putting forth of firm beliefs and life styles.
So I agree, debate over.
____________________________________________________________
Never run from anything immortal. It attracts their attention. |
| caryne |
Posted - 15/07/2009 : 15:35:50
Yes, rocker, I am a 'revolutionary socialist' (to give my political belief an exact description). I have no time for Capitalism and, whilst I love many indivuduals Americans, I hate the whole idea of 'the American way' which, for me, is all about the rich getting rich and the poor suffering. Don't tell me that 'everyone' can succeed in the USA because, simply, they can not. For one person to get rich they simply have to exploit others, that's how capitalism works. If you are happy with that then fair enough but I am not.
I have not been to the USA , it's true (I've always doubted with my lifetime of political activism they would even allow me!!) but my husband has, as have many socialist friends (I also correspond with socialists in the USA) and, like I say, I know where I would prefer to live. Frankly I prefer free healthcare, for example, than dying on the street because I havn't paid my health insurance.
Unless there's anything else different to be added I will end this here as, like I said earlier. I just don't think anything is to be achieved by trying to argue in favour of communism/socialism on here with people who have been, sadly, brought up to believe it is the 'ultimate evil'. |
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